[3.0] NeverSink's ♣ INDEPTH Tornado&Archer Guide ♣ Beginner friendly ♣ Rapid clear ♣ All bosses

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BachBWV971 wrote:

Hi, i have a question, why does the build suggest to use Weapon Elemental Damage + Physical to lightning? Wouldn't be much better running added fire damage (flat +40% instead of +15% from Physical to lightning) with Life gain on hit or mana leech/life leech or also Added cold damage? Great build tho, thanks in advice!

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Telrex wrote:

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BachBWV971 wrote:

Hi, i have a question, why does the build suggest to use Weapon Elemental Damage + Physical to lightning? Wouldn't be much better running added fire damage (flat +40% instead of +15% from Physical to lightning) with Life gain on hit or mana leech/life leech or also Added cold damage? Great build tho, thanks in advice!

The idea is that the PtL gem also converts half of your physical damage to lightning which is then multiplied by the WED gem. It's a pretty huge damage increase. However, people have been mentioning issues with leech and elemental reflect. It's probably not worth it to use either gem if you're not using both.

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melodia1 wrote:

I'm using a 270DPS bow, 5L setup (tornado - faster attacks - PPD - GMP - physical to lightning) and my tornado tooltip DPS with hatred + herald of ash is only about <5k. So basically the guide is saying if I upgrade my bow to 300+ DPS, and buy a pair of Maligaro's (which is nowhere near affordable anyways) it can suddenly jump to 15k? I'm having a very, very hard time believing that. My tree is pretty much identical to the guide.

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BachBWV971 wrote:

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Telrex wrote:

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BachBWV971 wrote:

Hi, i have a question, why does the build suggest to use Weapon Elemental Damage + Physical to lightning? Wouldn't be much better running added fire damage (flat +40% instead of +15% from Physical to lightning) with Life gain on hit or mana leech/life leech or also Added cold damage? Great build tho, thanks in advice!

The idea is that the PtL gem also converts half of your physical damage to lightning which is then multiplied by the WED gem. It's a pretty huge damage increase. However, people have been mentioning issues with leech and elemental reflect. It's probably not worth it to use either gem if you're not using both.

Yeah i got it but, lets say i deal 300 physical dmg:

with added fire i get: 300phys + 120fire (40%) = 420totdmg (blaze it :D); + FREE SLOT

with PtL + WED setup i get: 150phys + 150light + 45light (15% from PtL) + 40% of 45+150light (from WED) = 423totdmg;

The increase is of few points and i used a slot more!

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BachBWV971 wrote:

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melodia1 wrote:

I'm using a 270DPS bow, 5L setup (tornado - faster attacks - PPD - GMP - physical to lightning) and my tornado tooltip DPS with hatred + herald of ash is only about <5k. So basically the guide is saying if I upgrade my bow to 300+ DPS, and buy a pair of Maligaro's (which is nowhere near affordable anyways) it can suddenly jump to 15k? I'm having a very, very hard time believing that. My tree is pretty much identical to the guide.

6 Frenzy charges should help, are you using them?

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Telrex wrote:

First of all, I'm glad you brought this up since I was curious myself and had no reason to do these calculations before now.

The WED gem is a more modifier, not an increased modifier. Basically its a multiplier on top of everything else. The basic way the game calculates damage is:

Total = (Base) * (Sum Of +% Increased) * (% More)

You have to also include increased damage modifiers. Damage that is converted from physical is still modified by things that increase physical damage (this includes both x% Physical Damage Converted to <element> and x% Physical Damage Added As <element>). Say you have a bow that does 300 pdps and you have 200% increased phys damage from the skilltree.

Option 1: Added Fire (44% at lvl 20):

Physical: 300 * (1 + 2.00) = 900
Fire: (300 * 0.44) * (1 + 2.00) = 396
Total: 1296 Damage

Let's do Added Fire + WED (59% more at lvl 20):

Physical: 300 * (1 + 2.00) = 900
Fire: (300 * 0.44) * (1 + 2.00) * 1.59 = 629.64
Total: 1529.64 Damage

Now PtL (50% conversion, 29% added at lvl 20) + WED:

Physical: 150 * (1 + 2.00) = 450
Lightning (converted from Physical): 150 * (1 + 2.00) * 1.59 = 715.5
Lightning (Physical Added As Lightning): (300 * 0.29) * (1 + 2.00) * 1.59 = 414.99
(Note: The percentage added is based on the total phys damage before conversion)
Total: 1580.49 Damage (450 Phys, 1130.49 Lightning)

So it looks like (at least in this example) PtL + WED isn't that much better than Added Fire + WED, but its got a good lead over just Added Fire. But that's not counting all the shocking you will be doing with all that lightning damage.

More info about Damage Conversion from the wiki.

tl;dr: The more elemental damage you have, the more gets multiplied by WED.

Please let me know if I'm off, math was never my strongest subject.

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BachBWV971 wrote:

Hey dude, thanks a lot! I took a while to answer cause i did read and "study" that wiki page (very usefull!).
Your calculations are right, i'm definitely going for PtL + WED. Just an other question, what if i use Faster Projectiles? Is his 29% increased proj dmg at lvl 20 (http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Faster_Projectiles) applied to both physical and fire damage (in case i'd use added fire)? So that:

Physical: 300 * (1 + 2.29) ?
Fire: (300 * 0.44) * (1 + 2.29) ?

And, is it applied also to flat elemental damage (in case i'd use Added Cold for example)?

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Telrex wrote:

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BachBWV971 wrote:

Hey dude, thanks a lot! I took a while to answer cause i did read and "study" that wiki page (very usefull!).
Your calculations are right, i'm definitely going for PtL + WED. Just an other question, what if i use Faster Projectiles? Is his 29% increased proj dmg at lvl 20 (http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Faster_Projectiles) applied to both physical and fire damage (in case i'd use added fire)? So that:

Physical: 300 * (1 + 2.29) ?
Fire: (300 * 0.44) * (1 + 2.29) ?

And, is it applied also to flat elemental damage (in case i'd use Added Cold for example)?

Yes, it would increase both the phys and the fire damage. I think Added Cold will scale with Increased Projectile Damage, but not with Increased Physical Projectile Damage (since it's added flat elemental damage and not a conversion of physical damage).

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Telrex wrote:

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BachBWV971 wrote:

Hi, i have a question, why does the build suggest to use Weapon Elemental Damage + Physical to lightning? Wouldn't be much better running added fire damage (flat +40% instead of +15% from Physical to lightning) with Life gain on hit or mana leech/life leech or also Added cold damage? Great build tho, thanks in advice!

The idea is that the PtL gem also converts half of your physical damage to lightning which is then multiplied by the WED gem. It's a pretty huge damage increase. However, people have been mentioning issues with leech and elemental reflect. It's probably not worth it to use either gem if you're not using both.