Snapshotting

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Mark_GGG wrote:

Weapons in the unused weapon set are not active. None of their modifiers are in effect. If you were able to keep their benefit in effect when they were switched out to the inactive set, that would by definition be snapshotting. You've made the weapon inactive - it's modifiers aren't applying - but you've still kept the benefit of said modifier. That's snapshotting.

If you have a shield in your inactive weapon set, it's block chance doesn't apply.
If you have a wand in your inactive weapon set, it's spell damage increase doesn't apply.
If you have Reaper's Pursuit in your inactive weapon set, it's bleed on hit doesn't apply.
If you have Mon'tregul's Grasp in your inactive weapon set, it's minion damage should not apply. It continuing to apply while the weapon is inactive and it's downside has been removed is snapshotting.

Question: Switching to a weapon set that grants me a curse skill (be it corrupted or on a unique on hit) and I apply it to the monster, does it still apply after I switch back to my regular weapons? I hope so, that was one of the reasons I liked the secondary weapon set in D2 (charges and whatnot) and IMO one of the uses for secondary weapon slot that should stay.

Know it isnt mentioned anywhere in this thread, but since it was sorta "shown" in last build of the week was hoping for some clarification on this...

EDIT: for that matter same question if I have curse gems on secondary weapon set that I use before switching.

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Mark_GGG wrote:

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robmafia wrote:

that's... my point? how/why are the gems gaining experience if you're saying the items are unequipped?

Because the rules for gem xp say that gems gain XP if they're either in an equipped item or in one of the inactive weapon set items.

trolls getting trolled?

this isn't much better than arguing about grammar.

The equipment that is on your back contributes nothing to your stats, because you aren't actually using them. For all intents and purposes, they are unusable EXCEPT for the purpose of gem experience.

Another example of this is when items are muted by BOR and by insufficient STR/DEX/INT requirements. You still receive EXP on those gems, but are unable to use the skills or items.

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Mark_GGG wrote:

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robmafia wrote:

that's... my point? how/why are the gems gaining experience if you're saying the items are unequipped?

Because the rules for gem xp say that gems gain XP if they're either in an equipped item or in one of the inactive weapon set items.

i get that, i asked WHY it's that way. it doesn't appear to make any sense.

For RF, if I swap to a pair of redbeaks go low life cast RF and then swap my chest for Kaom's then swap back to my main weapon, will RF update for the redbeaks being swapped out?

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robmafia wrote:

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Mark_GGG wrote:

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robmafia wrote:

literally nothing's swapped. same gear, same gems.

You have swapped the Mon'tregul's Grasp for the weapon in your other weapon set.
The feature is literally called "Weapon swap". Here is a screenshot from the options panel:
Gear in the inactive set is not considered to be equipped. It allows gems to still gain XP by counting still linking the gems to your character, but the items themselves are not considered equipped.
The ones in the active set are.

I hope this adequately explains why this is a form of snapshotting.

this still literally makes no sense/is inconsistent.

so the gems are equipped but the items the gems are in aren't? yeah, ok.

also, you're now using 2 completely different definitions of "swap" - the one used to define snapshotting explicitly stated unequipping items and changing gems; neither of which happen in this instance.

using the definition from page 1, this isn't snapshotting.

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mark explianed it so well that it amuses me why you stil dont understand.

you're not fanboying hard enough.

Aight bro, Imma break this down reeeaaaaal simple for you.

Let's understand some things first.

1) The game can see all 4 weapons and considers all 4 as equipped
2) The game can see all gems linked in it and thus considers those gems equipped and allocates exp to them
3) The game assigns an active/inactive state to your items and gems based on what is equipped in your main hand slots vs off hand slots. Inactive items (and gems) do not have any of their bonuses or drawbacks applied to your character and cannot be used (this is why you can't use gems in an inactive item, and why an aura will terminate if you weapon swap it out).
4) Summons and auras currently don't care what supports are added/removed because they don't update dynamically. Whatever stats and bonuses they have when cast, they keep until re-cast.

So now that we've clarified that, let's look at what currently happens and how Raise Zombies works.

1) You have Mont equipped and in your active weapon slot. The game sees this and assigns Monte as your active weapon (all bonuses and drawbacks are currently applied, including zombie limit)
2) You now decide to go ahead and summon all 4 of your zombies. As you summon, each zombie creates a "freeze frame" in which the game looks at all your current bonuses, drawbacks, ect. and applies them to the zombies (<--This is the snapshot part). These bonuses and drawbacks don't update dynamically, so unless your zombies die or you recast them they keep whatever bonuses they had when summoned.
2) You now use your weapon swap to equip the Choberbro from off-hand. At this point the game assigns the Monte to "inactive" and the Choberbro to "active". At this point in time your character updates to reflect the change in active weapons, meaning your zombie limit is gone, as are the other bonuses from Monte. Despite that, the zombies you already summoned give zero fucks about you and keep the bonuses they were summoned with from Monte.
3) You now summon some more zombies. The game is seeing your active weapon as Choberbro and thus removing your Monte limit and enabling you to summon more zombies. These zombies again take a "snapshot" of all current player bonuses and support gems as they are summoned.

Thus you in effect end up with 4 Monte Zombies and however many Choberbros you felt like summoning and are now free to switch to better tanky gear, because again, your zombies are assholes and don't care about changes to you.

Under the new system, the zombies will not snapshot when summoned. They are simply considered summoned and when a weapon or support gem is moved from the "active and equipped" game-state to either "inactive" or "unequipped" the game will update you and your zombies accordingly. This means any weapon going to "inactive" state will cause your character to update (as it currently does), as well as giving your zombies a sensitivity lesson and making them change/update with you.

tl;dr
You're hung up on "character snapshotting" and not realizing that minions currently take a snapshot at the time of summoning. It's not the player being snapshot, it's the minions, and the act of summoning will no longer cause the game to take a snapshot of it's current state, instead any time anything changes that could affect skills, gems, players, or minions that are in an "active" state the game will update to reflect those changes.

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Mark_GGG wrote:

Could you please share how you calculated these numbers?
Have you not found the zombie life bonus from the item significant in your play?

I'm guessing hes using the zombie dps calculator that was on reddit a while back. Personally I feel the 500 life on Monrtegul's is not that great, first it doesn't scale with your zombie's gem level (Chober Chaber gives more life to zombies, the higher level your zombie gem is the bigger the increase you get from chober is). Also in my experience's my zombies either took very little to no damage or just got blown up, having 500 extra base life doesn't really do much. You're much better off having more damage and killing things before they have a chance to kill your zombies. Monrtegul's is going to be a noob trap if it isn't reworked in some way...in it's current form you lose a ton of dps and meat shield's if you're actually keeping it equipped and not just snapshotting with it.

Very excite :D