Progression in races

Hey,

I'd like to start a discussion about the current state of progression in races, esp. in races like 3h party.

Now why do I think there is a problem at the moment?

I watched like 2-3 streamed 3h party races yesterday. I thought the party would try and kill Dominus to progress. But what did I saw? 99% of all players (except 1 party I think) just farmed docks.

What is the point of farming docks? Why call it a 3h party, if we can rename it in: 2h docks farm. I always thought the purpose of a race was to progress as far as possible with limited gear. I think except one party no one really tried to kill Dominus. So what does this tell me?

a) Rewards are not worth the risk. If I look up the rewards list, I see: Only 2 points for cruel quests; and the jump from the reward lvl33-38 to lvl39+ is 3 points! So already the rewards in this race are: Farm docks. Don't die, don't progress, you will get more points this way.

b) The content of Act3X is to difficult. I don't know how to feel about the content of Act3X in races. Maybe it is to difficult, maybe not. This is a dicision which is made by GGG.


So, to sum this up, we see that it is not worth trying to progress because the risk of dying is way too high and the reward for progression is a joke.


How to solve this problem?

I) Give bettter rewards. Make it, that going for Dominus and Cruel outweights Docks farming. How?

Give for the first group doing Dominus like 10 points. This will outweight docks farming. Also it is possible to give more points for Dominus in the first 2 1/2h. So rushing there instead of farming docks is worth more.


II) Make it, that killing Dominus/being in Cruel is worth more than levels. How?

If you are in cruel you are automatically above other players who are in normal. Even if you are lvl35 cruel and they are lvl40 normal, you are above them. You earned the spot by risking and progression. If the lvl40 gets in the last minute to Cruel and the lvl35 wasn't lvl'ing anymore, than the lvl40 is again #1


III) Make Act3X not that difficult. In my opinion, getting to Cruel should be doable.



What would I-II (III can be ignored) solve?


Players/Party have to decide whether it is worth taking the risk for better rewards to progress or not. Races should be about progression and not docks farming.
Also for people who like action would like to watch streams try to kill Dominus with bad gear and low lvl.


P.S. All numbers and rewards are just examples.

TL;DR: Spice races up. Give more rewards for progression

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MacCc wrote:

If you are in cruel you are automatically above other players who are in normal.

Hmm.. it might need some implementation wrt. the ladder system/page but I find this idea very interesting. You could extend it to the point where any character in act 2 normal is ranked above any character in act 1 normal, and any character in act 3 normal is ranked above any character in act 2 normal. Yes you could farm docks for a long time anyway and then kill Dominus in the last 5 minutes.. but that strategy could also end fatally.

Could this be the solution to the good old discussion about farming/progressing, XP vs. progress?

Discuss!

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Hassefar60 wrote:

Yes you could farm docks for a long time anyway and then kill Dominus in the last 5 minutes.. but that strategy could also end fatally.

That's why I mentioned:

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MacCc wrote:

Also it is possible to give more points for Dominus in the first 2 1/2h

So people have to decide to farm or to progress. It has to be balanced out, but I think it should be possible to make racing (esp. the long races 2h+) worth watching. I mean no one likes watching streamer farming docks or other boring stuff. But trying to do Dominus within a small period of time is just interesting.

That will require even more implementation though. Better keep it as simple as possible. And I do not mind them farming Docks for a long time as long as they do Dominus eventually (and potentially fail because they waited too long). And keep in mind, top parties would probably do Dominus as early as possible in order to have time to reach act 2 cruel within the 3 hours. If they farm Docks and do Dominus in the last 5 minutes, they may lose to a party who are 3 levels lower but did Dominus early enough to have time to reach act 2 cruel.

Edit: The ladder would need to be upgraded to something similar to wowprogress (for those who know that) with small icons next to the player/character name (and next to the Twitch icon) indicating which act each player has progressed to. And then simply modifying the way players are sorted to take these into account. It might not be that difficult after all. New icons, new sorting and a way to detect the progression level of each character (which I am sure there is already).

Parties will be going for Dominus eventually. It just takes some time to figure out how exactly to do it. It's not a walk in the park exactly to kill dominus underleveled and undergeared. Let the metagame develop and let players figure out the best way to do it before making such radical changes to the game.

It's not that people don't want to do Dominus, but I think you really don't understand how hard it is to do that boss unless you have max resists and a crap ton of life, which is very unlikely in a race (most race specs go for pure dmg and minimal life).

You have to put all of this into perspective. Sure Dominus is really easy when you have lots of life and max resist, but I think most people's perception is kind of tainted by the fact that they only do Dominus with good gear and overleveled or at least on par with the level zone.

Seriously just try and do Dominus undergeared at level 30 or 31 with lower than max resists and you will see what I'm talking about.

If anything the sceptre of god needs to be changed for races, the mobs there still have a disproportianate amount of damage and life and your experience gain while doing sceptre of god is absolutely terrible (while your risk of dying is unbelievably high). The whole act 3x is just very out of line with the rest of the game.

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SlixSC wrote:

Spoiler

Parties will be going for Dominus eventually. It just takes some time to figure out how exactly to do it. It's not a walk in the park exactly to kill dominus underleveled and undergeared. Let the metagame develop and let players figure out the best way to do it before making such radical changes to the game.

It's not that people don't want to do Dominus, but I think you really don't understand how hard it is to do that boss unless you have max resists and a crap ton of life, which is very unlikely in a race (most race specs go for pure dmg and minimal life).

You have to put all of this into perspective. Sure Dominus is really easy when you have lots of life and max resist, but I think most people's perception is kind of tainted by the fact that they only do Dominus with good gear and overleveled or at least on par with the level zone.

Seriously just try and do Dominus undergeared at level 30 or 31 with lower than max resists and you will see what I'm talking about.

If anything the sceptre of god needs to be changed for races, the mobs there still have a disproportianate amount of damage and life and your experience gain while doing sceptre of god is absolutely terrible (while your risk of dying is unbelievably high). The whole act 3x is just very out of line with the rest of the game.

I am well aware of that SlixSC and I agree with you.

In the past when Piety was the end boss, parties would still stay in Docks because the XP per hour was better in Docks normal than Ledge cruel (or at most comparable; I might be wrong here but that was my impression).

Furthermore, my suggestion was also to implement it for every single act, not just difficulty. That part would not need any meta game to develop as it is already there. You can argue that the meta game in races does not include Dominus but I have a feeling we all know where it is going.. at least for 3 hour races.

Also, would such a change really be so radical?

"

Hassefar60 wrote:

"

SlixSC wrote:

Spoiler

Parties will be going for Dominus eventually. It just takes some time to figure out how exactly to do it. It's not a walk in the park exactly to kill dominus underleveled and undergeared. Let the metagame develop and let players figure out the best way to do it before making such radical changes to the game.

It's not that people don't want to do Dominus, but I think you really don't understand how hard it is to do that boss unless you have max resists and a crap ton of life, which is very unlikely in a race (most race specs go for pure dmg and minimal life).

You have to put all of this into perspective. Sure Dominus is really easy when you have lots of life and max resist, but I think most people's perception is kind of tainted by the fact that they only do Dominus with good gear and overleveled or at least on par with the level zone.

Seriously just try and do Dominus undergeared at level 30 or 31 with lower than max resists and you will see what I'm talking about.

If anything the sceptre of god needs to be changed for races, the mobs there still have a disproportianate amount of damage and life and your experience gain while doing sceptre of god is absolutely terrible (while your risk of dying is unbelievably high). The whole act 3x is just very out of line with the rest of the game.

I am well aware of that SlixSC and I agree with you.

In the past when Piety was the end boss, parties would still stay in Docks because the XP per hour was better in Docks normal than Ledge cruel (or at most comparable; I might be wrong here but that was my impression).

Furthermore, my suggestion was also to implement it for every single act, not just difficulty. That part would not need any meta game to develop as it is already there. You can argue that the meta game in races does not include Dominus but I have a feeling we all know where it is going.. at least for 3 hour races.

Also, would such a change really be so radical?

I think it's fine that there is a possibility for such metagame decisions though. Some teams will try and push for cruel, whereas other teams will farm docks instead. By simply splitting the ladder you remove that metagame aspect from the game entirely because there would only be one choice if you wanted to win. (and it might still turn out to be the case that you actually have to get to cruel if you want to win future 3h races anyway, which I find very likely)

I think the best solution to this problem would be to leave the ladders as they are, but streamline the Sceptre of God areas to make them more rewarding and less risky.

I don't really think this so much a problem with the way the ladders in races work, but simply exposes how broken the sceptre of god is. Monsters in that zone do a disproportionate amount of damage, have alot more health and subsequently are alot worse for XP-gain. That is the actual problem, sure you could go for a band-aid fix and change the way the ladder system works, but that is ignoring the actual problem, which is that the sceptre of god is absolutely broken, from a balance perspective.

And your suggestions would make some races alot more RNG dependant, someone with bad RNG would be forced to farm docks and have absolutely no chance to win the race, whereas someone with good RNG who lucks out and finds gear that gives them max resists could attempt Dominus and get way ahead. I don't like this idea, because I personally don't really feel like I ever have godlike RNG, so from my perspective it would only hurt those with bad RNG and benefit those with better RNG. RNG can already be race-deciding in many cases, if we implemented what you guys are suggesting that effect would only be amplified. (because not only would you need a good weapon to compete, but max resists on all your gear, which I find ridiculous)

I'm just asking you to consider that.

I think there are two issues here:

1: Scepter of God difficulty

2: Progression in races

I agree that issue 1 should be addressed before issue 2. And you may be right that cruel is the place to be in future party races.

Act 3X took a huge step in difficulty. After completing act 3X, act 1 in the next difficulty is usually a walk in the park. Maybe that is intended, maybe not. But I agree that it is the first thing to consider. Then, afterwards, we can consider "forcing" players to progress.

And keep in mind, you always have a choice whether to progress or not to. Progress usually means less XP per time and thus, if you do not succeed, you will lose a lot (clever race durations can help here).

I still think about all the 105 min turbo races in season 4. A carrot for reaching act 3, which was much more dangerous than staying in act 2, could have changed the competition a lot, possibly for the better.

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SlixSC wrote:

P

Seriously just try and do Dominus undergeared at level 30 or 31 with lower than max resists and you will see what I'm talking about.

Nemesis started. I've done with a friend Dominus at lvl32, all res was ~40. I know what I am talking about. We killed him (after ~15-20mins and like 15 portals).
And that's why I made this proposal. Sure, my friend and I are not race monster and that high skilled caped like streamers and racers are, but still! 20mins worth of farm is just "wasted" in the current state of racing. In 20mins you do like 1-2 lvl's. And these lvl's can't be recover.
The risk and time is just too high. Let's say group A killes Dominus (takes them 15mins). Now they still have to rush ActI to the ledge and can here start getting more exp than people who were farming Docks. No way they can get the same lvl like Group B (only docks farm).
That's why I think my idea makes more sense. Also yes, you are right, that a meta should be established, before making such a change. But how?
1 race a week will never establish a meta.

Edit: And about the Act3X discussion. If they lower the difficult of the content, they have to lower it in all leagues, not just races. Races have to be 100% the same like the normal game, not more difficult, not less difficult (except endless ledge and Descent)


Just my 2 cents. Maybe I am wrong.

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MacCc wrote:

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SlixSC wrote:

P

Seriously just try and do Dominus undergeared at level 30 or 31 with lower than max resists and you will see what I'm talking about.

Nemesis started. I've done with a friend Dominus at lvl32, all res was ~40. I know what I am talking about. We killed him (after ~15-20mins and like 15 portals).
And that's why I made this proposal. Sure, my friend and I are not race monster and that high skilled caped like streamers and racers are, but still! 20mins worth of farm is just "wasted" in the current state of racing. In 20mins you do like 1-2 lvl's. And these lvl's can't be recover.
The risk and time is just too high. Let's say group A killes Dominus (takes them 15mins). Now they still have to rush ActI to the ledge and can here start getting more exp than people who were farming Docks. No way they can get the same lvl like Group B (only docks farm).
That's why I think my idea makes more sense. Also yes, you are right, that a meta should be established, before making such a change. But how?
1 race a week will never establish a meta.


Just my 2 cents. Maybe I am wrong.

Point is, all of what you said is a problem with the sceptre of god and not how the ladders are set up. Sceptre of God is a huge XP loss and extremely risky. So the solution is to balance the sceptre of god. If the problem still persists after that, we can talk about changing the ladder.

From my perspective your suggestion doesn't address the underlying issue at all and would only punish players with bad RNG even more.