Evasion is useless

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Invalesco wrote:

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randrew wrote:

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taekvideo wrote:

Only works against other dex users (and not even the duelists who get RT).

Just throwing that out there. Every dex pvp build will use iron reflexes to get armor instead. Not sure if that's intended or not.

This has always been a problem, even in PvE. The "all-or-nothing" gamble never wins vs. flat out damage reduction, esp. with the high attack speeds in this game. Armor must slow attack speed for evasion to be usable, but that's not going to happen.


Either way, Evasion as game mechanic is bad design. It's good that PvP finally brings this issue the light it deserves.

you should understand though that DR only reflects the damage reduction done to mobs at your level. the average level 28 player deals much more damage than your average level 28 monster, hence your DR versus a level 28 player is actually much lower, perhaps even negligible if it's a really hard-hitting character.

evasion on the other hand, mitigates all damage. true, your evasion chance against a level 28 player will be lower than against your average level 28 monster, but your overall damage mitigation still outweighs that of an average level 28 armoured character.

same applies to higher level PvPs

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SoujiroSeta wrote:

How would you feel if there was a keystone that could bypass ES and dmg your health directly? Or 1 dmg type that wasn't chaos, but bypasses energy shield? or one skill that targetted life and bypassed ES? (Not being sarcastic, i'm asking a genuine question) Making Chaos innoculation completely uselss. How would you feel?

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Invalesco wrote:

That's the thing Soujiro. It's a fundamental problem with your build not with all evasion classes in general. You are trying to go for an Evasion/ES/HP Build. The problem with that is that your max HP is not high enough to buffer against viper strike/chaos damage players and your max HP is not high enough such that you have a low chance of being stunned.

If you had gone for pure ES aka CI build, chaos damage wouldn't be a problem, and you can wear the Eye of Chayula Onyx ammy that gives immunity to stun.

If you had gone for pure HP build and took more HP nodes and stacked up on +life gear and %ev nodes instead of Ev/Es Nodes as what you are doing now, you probably would have ended up with a higher HP and hence lower chance of being stunned.

You're an oddball in that you're picking an impossible build as an example. You're already having problems in PvE with your build, what more PvP? Just because your build isn't viable doesn't mean that Evasion in itself is fundamentally flawed soujiro. Instead of blaming everything else except your build, calm down and change your current skill tree set up.

No single defensive stat is brilliant by itself. So what if you have high armour or Evasion? you need to have high hp or high ES to make it work. So what if you have high ES? you need ES regen nodes or Ghost reaver, or even both to make it effectively useful in combat.

You're splitting your resources between HP,ES and evasion as it is. Focus on either HP or ES, not both. As a HP user, if your HP is not >3000 in merciless (irregardless of your ES), it's just not good enough

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Invalesco wrote:

you should understand though that DR only reflects the damage reduction done to mobs at your level. the average level 28 player deals much more damage than your average level 28 monster, hence your DR versus a level 28 player is actually much lower, perhaps even negligible if it's a really hard-hitting character.

evasion on the other hand, mitigates all damage. true, your evasion chance against a level 28 player will be lower than against your average level 28 monster, but your overall damage mitigation still outweighs that of an average level 28 armoured character.

same applies to higher level PvPs

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anubite wrote:

Yes, only evasion = death sentence. But life + evasion is stronger than you're giving credit.

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SoujiroSeta wrote:

I will respond to your quote, but first before you respond to this post i'm about to make, can you answer this question from my last post.

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SoujiroSeta wrote:

How would you feel if there was a keystone that could bypass ES and dmg your health directly? Or 1 dmg type that wasn't chaos, but bypasses energy shield? or one skill that targetted life and bypassed ES? (Not being sarcastic, i'm asking a genuine question) Making Chaos innoculation completely uselss. How would you feel?

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Invalesco wrote:

That's the thing Soujiro. It's a fundamental problem with your build not with all evasion classes in general. You are trying to go for an Evasion/ES/HP Build. The problem with that is that your max HP is not high enough to buffer against viper strike/chaos damage players and your max HP is not high enough such that you have a low chance of being stunned.

If you had gone for pure ES aka CI build, chaos damage wouldn't be a problem, and you can wear the Eye of Chayula Onyx ammy that gives immunity to stun.

If you had gone for pure HP build and took more HP nodes and stacked up on +life gear and %ev nodes instead of Ev/Es Nodes as what you are doing now, you probably would have ended up with a higher HP and hence lower chance of being stunned.

You're an oddball in that you're picking an impossible build as an example. You're already having problems in PvE with your build, what more PvP? Just because your build isn't viable doesn't mean that Evasion in itself is fundamentally flawed soujiro. Instead of blaming everything else except your build, calm down and change your current skill tree set up.

No single defensive stat is brilliant by itself. So what if you have high armour or Evasion? you need to have high hp or high ES to make it work. So what if you have high ES? you need ES regen nodes or Ghost reaver, or even both to make it effectively useful in combat.

You're splitting your resources between HP,ES and evasion as it is. Focus on either HP or ES, not both. As a HP user, if your HP is not >3000 in merciless (irregardless of your ES), it's just not good enough

This has nothing to do with my build, but rather evasion as a defense mechanic in pvp. I'm not the only one who noticed this. I didn't create this thread, so as you can see takevideo, the OP, noticed it as well. There is even another thread about it

Shield Charge and Evasion characters

But your leech is rendered completely useless with sin treks anyway. You relying on one thing is easily countered by another.


I do think evasion has issues though.

Atleast the OP of the "shield charge and evasion characters" has acro, and i'm guessing phase acro as well. Even still, 30% chance to dodge an attack and 20% for a spell is still useless. It doesn't matter if you somehow magcially got 90% chance to evade, all that is thrown out the window by 1 single keystone, 1 skill (shield charge), or one dmg type (spells).

Uhh, in regards to my build I leech back a ton of ES per hit, yes I have GR, so i don't need 7k ES. Also, have you tried making an ES life shadow without going CI? I assure you getting 3k will cost you a lot of other things. Achieving 3k health in that section of the tree is a million times harder than 3k ES. There's a reason why many high evasion based characters use viper strike, cause the cost of achieving a high HP and high evasion, especially as a shadow, means sacrificing dmg, and I mean a ton of dmg. This is not about my build so i will not comment on this any further.
Also, >3k hp is easy for str aligned classes, or a ranger who is close to duelist and can get str. For a shadow/witch, you would have to travel far. This is why all witches and 99% of shadows take CI. It's easy to stack ES, no need to worry about life, and choas immunity. If you have a good ES shield leech, and enough hp to buffer chaos dmg, you can do fine, but you'll definetely have to play better than if you had taken CI.

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Invalesco wrote:

you should understand though that DR only reflects the damage reduction done to mobs at your level. the average level 28 player deals much more damage than your average level 28 monster, hence your DR versus a level 28 player is actually much lower, perhaps even negligible if it's a really hard-hitting character.

evasion on the other hand, mitigates all damage. true, your evasion chance against a level 28 player will be lower than against your average level 28 monster, but your overall damage mitigation still outweighs that of an average level 28 armoured character.

same applies to higher level PvPs

Evasion only works when it can be applied. In this case, it cannot. Spells never miss, RT grants the character 100 hit-chance, and shield charge never misses. So there is nothing to evade, you will always get hit. Hence the problem with evasion in pvp.

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anubite wrote:

Yes, only evasion = death sentence. But life + evasion is stronger than you're giving credit.

randrew is right though. I leech a ton of ES shield back per-hit, have close to 45% chance to evade, but yet I still had to focus on dual wield block and have 29% chance to block.
Relying on evasion alone does not work. Doesn't matter if you have 4k health. Evasion and 4k health will not save you, and is not strong. 3k health, evasion, and block chance will. As he said, evasion is all or nothing, hence why so many evasive characters get block chance for those extra "when my evasion fails" moments. Which it will.

This is not the case with armor or ES, you don't need block chance with either.

Also, life+evasion, as i replied to invalesco, doesn't apply in this case, as the reason why evasion is worthless in pvp is because of attacks/dmg types that don't take evasion into account. You can have 4k health and it doesn't matter. 1-hit, WHICH WILL ALWAYS CONNECT, will put you in stun-lock and you're dead.

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wiggin wrote:

Another way to look at this is: "Okay, evasion is useless in open PvP, so don't use it there." My personal experience is that high evasion in open PvP is good when you are fighting summoners and bow users.

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SoujiroSeta wrote:

Once a RT marauder/spellcaster/shield charger connects,

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Invalesco wrote:

That's the thing Soujiro. It's a fundamental problem with your build not with all evasion classes in general. You are trying to go for an Evasion/ES/HP Build. The problem with that is that your max HP is not high enough to buffer against viper strike/chaos damage players and your max HP is not high enough such that you have a low chance of being stunned.

If you had gone for pure ES aka CI build, chaos damage wouldn't be a problem, and you can wear the Eye of Chayula Onyx ammy that gives immunity to stun.

If you had gone for pure HP build and took more HP nodes and stacked up on +life gear and %ev nodes instead of Ev/Es Nodes as what you are doing now, you probably would have ended up with a higher HP and hence lower chance of being stunned.

You're an oddball in that you're picking an impossible build as an example. You're already having problems in PvE with your build, what more PvP? Just because your build isn't viable doesn't mean that Evasion in itself is fundamentally flawed soujiro. Instead of blaming everything else except your build, calm down and change your current skill tree set up.

No single defensive stat is brilliant by itself. So what if you have high armour or Evasion? you need to have high hp or high ES to make it work. So what if you have high ES? you need ES regen nodes or Ghost reaver, or even both to make it effectively useful in combat.

You're splitting your resources between HP,ES and evasion as it is. Focus on either HP or ES, not both. As a HP user, if your HP is not >3000 in merciless (irregardless of your ES), it's just not good enough

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theamazingjojo wrote:

you just dont get it

in pvp, the vast majority of matches involve attacks with RT or spells, which render evasion 100% useless. Or should we say 90% useless because only 10% or less of matches have accuracy users (flicker? dual strike? thats it?) All that investment in %evasion nodes and evasion gear wasted, when you could take different passives or wear es / armor gear.

whether he goes hybrid es / hp or pure es or pure hp has nothing to do with it, and you cant say evasion is superior to armor because it mitigates 100% as opposed to armor, because in a situation where evasion cant even mitigate that 100% once, even 1 point of armor or more hp / es is better.

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Azdrubel wrote:

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theamazingjojo wrote:

you just dont get it

in pvp, the vast majority of matches involve attacks with RT or spells, which render evasion 100% useless. Or should we say 90% useless because only 10% or less of matches have accuracy users (flicker? dual strike? thats it?) All that investment in %evasion nodes and evasion gear wasted, when you could take different passives or wear es / armor gear.

whether he goes hybrid es / hp or pure es or pure hp has nothing to do with it, and you cant say evasion is superior to armor because it mitigates 100% as opposed to armor, because in a situation where evasion cant even mitigate that 100% once, even 1 point of armor or more hp / es is better.

I think it is highly debatable that Invalesco did not get it when it took you about 1 year and 2 months to find an answer to his statement...

Anyways, you are wrong. Most ppl will want to have the benefit of being able to crit and RT makes no real sense for the majoritiy of weapon users (except bows and very slow twohanders). The most effective spell is RF, which has no real defensive counter anyways (just a combination of curses, auras, flasks and gear). Most other spells cannot compete with weapon dmg thus being less present in the arena (especially since the nerf to RF spelldmg, which hurt those crit EK chars). So, Eva is not outright worse than armor/es.

Also, your argument with armor mitigating where Eva does not is flawed, as I can make up several situations where even 100k armor-rating won´t do jack shit in the arena (fighting a pure elemental weapon user, fighting an elespell user, fighting an RF dude, fighting a dagger puncture critbuild - in all of these situations eva is superior to armor or at least equal). So, your argument works both ways.

What you fail to mention (and which is the reason why armor is still superior to Eva) is, that Eva can be hardcountered while armor cannot. Armor will ALWAYS do its job (reduce the amount of physical dmg taken) under circumstances where it possibly can (fighting someone who deals physical dmg). Sometimes it will do this more effectively (lower dmg, non-crit) sometimes less effectively (high crit, high dmg), but it WILL always soak up at least a fraction of the physical dmg. You can safely invest into armor because you can rely on it to have the desired effect. With Eva you cannot. Matchmaking becomes a gamble, because you can be paired up against a guy who can completely nullify your whole defensive concept by having RT specced or by wielding Lioneye´s or Kongor´s (not saying those were good PvP weapons or anything, but the point stands). It is the same as making a char that relies on curses. Sure, curses are great and all and most chars use them, but when you can face enemies that are imune to curses, you cannot make them the core of your build (or worse, your main defence). It is the same with block and the old 100% blockpenetration with swords. How is one supposed to deal with that? It´s just wrong. It should not be possible to make stuff 100% useless (and especially not defensive concepts). Hardcounters are broken, period.


regards