Evasion is useless

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SoujiroSeta wrote:

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Invalesco wrote:

Evasion does not work directly against RT, but it works indirectly coz RT users cannot crit. and it works directly against all other attack-based builds. what exactly is the problem with it?

They don't have to crit. One hit and you're stun locked. Doesn't matter how much hp you have. Once a RT marauder/spellcaster/shield charger connects, which they will since they always hit, you're stun locked and die. They whole point of evasion is to evade(avoid) dmg. this is not the case with RT as you can't evade anything. In other words, your evasion is useless.

That is the problem. You have to be facing OTHER ATTACK BASED BUILDS. Why should that be? Should I quit on every Resolute technique/spellcaster/shield charger i run into? Because i'm automatically going to lose? Why should I be forced to take acro-phase acro?

I don't want to run from anyone, but the moment I see one of those characters, what's the point in playing? My evasion is useless. I work so hard to get it close to 50%, and it's bypassed by 1 keystone, 1 damage type, and 1 skill.

How would you feel if there was a keystone that could bypass ES and dmg your health directly? Or 1 dmg type that wasn't chaos, but bypasses energy shield? or one skill that targetted life and bypassed ES? (Not being sarcastic, i'm asking a genuine question)

That's the thing Soujiro. It's a fundamental problem with your build not with all evasion classes in general. You are trying to go for an Evasion/ES/HP Build. The problem with that is that your max HP is not high enough to buffer against viper strike/chaos damage players and your max HP is not high enough such that you have a low chance of being stunned.

If you had gone for pure ES aka CI build, chaos damage wouldn't be a problem, and you can wear the Eye of Chayula Onyx ammy that gives immunity to stun.

If you had gone for pure HP build and took more HP nodes and stacked up on +life gear and %ev nodes instead of Ev/Es Nodes as what you are doing now, you probably would have ended up with a higher HP and hence lower chance of being stunned.

You're an oddball in that you're picking an impossible build as an example. You're already having problems in PvE with your build, what more PvP? Just because your build isn't viable doesn't mean that Evasion in itself is fundamentally flawed soujiro. Instead of blaming everything else except your build, calm down and change your current skill tree set up.

No single defensive stat is brilliant by itself. So what if you have high armour or Evasion? you need to have high hp or high ES to make it work. So what if you have high ES? you need ES regen nodes or Ghost reaver, or even both to make it effectively useful in combat.

You're splitting your resources between HP,ES and evasion as it is. Focus on either HP or ES, not both. As a HP user, if your HP is not >3000 in merciless (irregardless of your ES), it's just not good enough

I tried my "evasion/energy shield with a little armor" build (level 28) and think evasion is really useless. In 3vs3 games I just instant die. If I play good I can jump at one enemy and hit him once or twice. But then I am dead.

Hello,

I am the guy Invalesco mentioned with evasion/A/PA/block build. I play only evasion builds and just wanted to lay out some thoughts. I am commenting from pure evasion perspective and hybrids are in a whole different situation.

In my opinion evasion is not worthless but will take a pretty niche space in pvp in current circumstances.
Against spell users it has no effect same as armor.
It will help against summoners quite a bit because their spell damage is weaker and they rely on their pets quite a lot for damage output(at least from my understanding, never played one).
Against attacks we have 2 cases - with or without RT. From my experience those who do not get RT are at least partially Dex builds. Evasion works fine against them except for a small disadvantage of higher than average accuracy because of Dex.
Now on to RT... Zero use from evasion itself. Period.

Acrobatics enables you to get some form of defense(except for pure life) against RT. BUT if we consider way to RT/A equal its still 1 sp vs 5 sp. I can't think of any other keystone that negates one form of defense completely. If you are a bow user you have no choice but to take the hits. DW and shield users are in a better spot because you can rely on block too.

The biggest problem I think comes from RT being so popular. I obviously don't have any hard data but feels like most marauders/duelists/templars who use attacks go for it. When we have more people playing and bigger build diversity(hopefully) evasion might be seen in a different light.

@taekvideo against Invalesco evasion actaully helped a ton because he does not have RT :)it was ~700-800 accuracy against 10.5k evasion if I'm not mistaken.

@Invalesco RT builds are fine without crits because in my opinion always hitting gives a better damage output than a 5% or so chance to crit and low accuracy.

So to sum up evasion currently is a bit niche form of defense and considering how many RT users and spellcasters you encounter leads to people saying its worthless.

Give a similiar node to dex builds. Ignores armor/cannot crit. Pretty unfair otherwise.

Evasion has to be united with block chance for example or yes of course it becomes useless...but what did you expect?Never be hit by enemies or other players?C'mon..
Also armor is useless if you don't have enough life or energy shield..WE don't want and easy game, I don't want that every single build (even the meaningless one) works and permits to win easily. If it was so I wouldn't be interested in this game anymore..

Evasion is not worthless in 28 pvp. I've won numerous matches because of my high evasion rate.

Another way to look at this is: "Okay, evasion is useless in open PvP, so don't use it there." My personal experience is that high evasion in open PvP is good when you are fighting summoners and bow users.

Evasion actually might be the ultimate counter to bow users if you get Arrow Dodging.

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taekvideo wrote:

Only works against other dex users (and not even the duelists who get RT).

Just throwing that out there. Every dex pvp build will use iron reflexes to get armor instead. Not sure if that's intended or not.

This has always been a problem, even in PvE. The "all-or-nothing" gamble never wins vs. flat out damage reduction, esp. with the high attack speeds in this game. Armor must slow attack speed for evasion to be usable, but that's not going to happen.


Either way, Evasion as game mechanic is bad design. It's good that PvP finally brings this issue the light it deserves.

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randrew wrote:

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taekvideo wrote:

Only works against other dex users (and not even the duelists who get RT).

Just throwing that out there. Every dex pvp build will use iron reflexes to get armor instead. Not sure if that's intended or not.

This has always been a problem, even in PvE. The "all-or-nothing" gamble never wins vs. flat out damage reduction, esp. with the high attack speeds in this game. Armor must slow attack speed for evasion to be usable, but that's not going to happen.


Either way, Evasion as game mechanic is bad design. It's good that PvP finally brings this issue the light it deserves.

you should understand though that DR only reflects the damage reduction done to mobs at your level. the average level 28 player deals much more damage than your average level 28 monster, hence your DR versus a level 28 player is actually much lower, perhaps even negligible if it's a really hard-hitting character.

evasion on the other hand, mitigates all damage. true, your evasion chance against a level 28 player will be lower than against your average level 28 monster, but your overall damage mitigation still outweighs that of an average level 28 armoured character.

same applies to higher level PvPs