Restart league, every league once please - league cycles

Both of these are fair concerns, so let me actually engage with them instead of hand-waving.

On the "top 1% leaves and the old league becomes a ghost town at the high end":

This is the strongest objection so far, but I think it actually argues for careful timing rather than against the concept. A few points:

- The juicers and uber farmers you're describing are also the players most likely to already be done with their goals by week 8-10. They're not stopping farming because a parallel league exists; they're stopping because they've finished their build and the economy has calcified. A parallel start gives them somewhere to go instead of quitting entirely, which is what most of them do today.

- If the parallel league launches at, say, the 8-10 week mark – not week 2 – it's catching players at the natural drop-off, not pulling them away mid-grind.

- The "obligation to move because that's where the economy is" already happens today, every single league launch. The current system just calls it "league start" instead of "parallel start." You're not avoiding that pressure; you're just experiencing it on GGG's schedule rather than more often.

On the Standard farmer point:

I think there's a misunderstanding of the proposal. Items from a parallel league would still end up in Standard at the end of that league, exactly like items do today. Nothing is being permanently removed from your eventual Standard pool. The only difference is when a given item migrates. If anything, more parallel leagues = more items eventually flowing into Standard, not fewer.

The "an item I want is being traded on a different instance right now" framing is essentially the same as "an item I want is being traded in Affliction league and I'm in Standard" – which is already the case. You wait, it comes home.

The honest concession:

The migration-pressure point is real and I won't pretend it isn't. The mitigation is timing (late in the cycle, not early) and framing (this is for the people who already left, not the people still playing). If GGG launched a parallel reset two weeks after league start, yeah, that would be a disaster. Three months in, when 85% or more of players are already gone? That's just giving the leavers somewhere to come back to.

Rage-quitting because other people get to play a fresh economy you didn't ask to participate in is… a choice, I guess. But it's not one the proposal forces on you.

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derbe#6071 wrote:

On the Standard farmer point:

I think there's a misunderstanding of the proposal. Items from a parallel league would still end up in Standard at the end of that league, exactly like items do today. Nothing is being permanently removed from your eventual Standard pool. The only difference is when a given item migrates. If anything, more parallel leagues = more items eventually flowing into Standard, not fewer.

The "an item I want is being traded on a different instance right now" framing is essentially the same as "an item I want is being traded in Affliction league and I'm in Standard" – which is already the case. You wait, it comes home.

as someone who plays temp leagues for the purpose of getting items to bring to standard i can tell you that you are severely lacking understanding in that area. that is not your fault, it is not how you play.

let me tell you how it is.

for starters there is huge inflation. do you know on standard some valuable timeless jewels are listed for 100s of divines? do you know how much its listed in temp leagues? 1-2 divines.

your notion that an item is going to end up in standard in the end is hugely missing the entire "i want to farm for it during the league" point, where items are actually affordable.

then lets take a look at league exclusive gear. back in crucible when we had crucible weapons, the weapons with good crucibles were ranging from 5 divines to 100s of divines. their potential to outclass mirror tier weapons on standard was crazy. by the time the weapons hit standard. many listed them for mirrors. it was simple. during the league theres always the ability to farm more. there was supply. now when it hit standard. there was a huge shortage. theres NO WAY to obtain new crucible weapons. standard itself does have rich bastards who are waiting to snap up highly desirable items even if it cost them a bomb.

if your argument simply is it ends up on standard, my first counter point is most of us wont be able to afford the item once it hits standard.

my second counter point. assuming i m a rich ass standard player. why would i play temp leagues to begin with? i ll just skip the entire league and buy whatever i need when things get transferred over to standard. any players with similar mindset would not contribute to your temp league numbers at all.

other arguments.

you assume just because items "end up in standard" does that mean i can get them even if i got enough mirrors?

false. some players who would have wanted to offload their gear during league to buy other gear that they need no longer feel the need to sell those items and might even just decide to keep the items.

some items that have very good mods are simply snapped up almost immediately when they hit standard. do you think standard players are simply going to let valuable unobtainable items to just slip thru their fingers? nope. theyre gonna buy that shit up.

are you also aware that some temp league players do not care for their character and actually do give aways near the end of the league or just out right delete their character?

the very best time to buy league specific gear is during the temp league itself.

i really hate having to farm maybe 100-200 divines worth of gear to get myself comfortable enough to farm and buy much more valuable gear that would be worth mirrors on standard. but i still do it because its still a good option for me to buy up such items.

what happens when a much powerful item that i want is listed on a parallel league?

i dont have a character on that league. its of course going to cost a lot and i wont have time to farm the amount required.

even if i did bite the bullet and start farming in that parallel league, i'm already behind any people who were already going hard in the league. do you seriously think no ones gonna buy the item up? i've played many leagues and in some of them i actually "lose" items when i dont farm enough fast enough. someone else snaps up the item.

do you think the item then automatically goes to standard and is put on sale? theres no guarantee.

the way leagues currently work allows me to ensure my effort actually pays off. if someone buys an item that i want, too bad for me, i ll be on the look out for a similar item, but at least i would have currency saved up by then to buy it.

if you need clarification, you can ask me. dont assume. your current assumption is severely wrong and you have not provided any solution that would mitigate this issue should parallel leagues be a thing.

its ironic, you started this topic stating that one reason people like new leagues is because of the fresh economy but fail to see how this fresh economy is being utilized.

back during settlers, we actually had parallel leagues somewhat. thankfully there was not any items that i wanted. i skipped all the parallel leagues. i played in settlers and earned a huge lot of currency and when poe2 got released i quit poe for that period of time.

a hard no on parallel leagues.

Thanks for actually laying out your playstyle in detail – that's genuinely useful, because now we can talk about what's actually going on instead of past each other.

What you're describing isn't really "the trade economy." It's a very specific arbitrage strategy: farm in the temp league where supply is fresh and prices are low, then move those items to Standard where supply is dry and prices are 10-100x higher.That's a clever way to play, and I'm not knocking it. But it's important to be honest that this is a niche optimization, not how most trade league players engage with the game. Most people play the league to play the league.

Your entire objection boils down to: "parallel leagues would fragment the cheap-supply windows I depend on to feed Standard." That's a real concern for your specific strategy – but the proposal isn't broken because it doesn't optimize for one player's Standard-feeding workflow.

A couple of specific points:

On "items get snapped up before they hit Standard": That's already true today. You already lose items to faster farmers, to players who keep their gear, to people who delete characters. Parallel leagues don't introduce this problem; you're describing the status quo.

On "I can't be in two leagues at once": Correct, and that's a real constraint on your arbitrage. But the answer to "I personally can't extract value from a parallel league" isn't "therefore the parallel league shouldn't exist for anyone else." Lots of players can't extract maximum value from the current league either – they have jobs, kids, limited time. The game doesn't get designed around any single player's extraction ceiling.

On Crucible weapons: You're describing the current league system producing exactly the problem you're warning about – league-exclusive supply dries up the moment the league ends, prices explode on Standard, and only "rich bastards" can buy. That's an argument that the current system is broken for affordability, not that parallel leagues would break it.

On Settlers: You said you skipped the parallel leagues and it didn't affect you. That's… literally the proposal. Opt-in. The thing you're calling "a hard no" is the thing you already successfully ignored.

The honest reframing:

Your real argument is "parallel leagues would dilute the arbitrage window I use to fund my Standard gear." Fair. But that's asking the 85% of players who quit at week 6 to keep not having anything to play, so that your specific Standard-feeding strategy keeps working at maximum efficiency. That's a trade-off worth naming out loud, because phrased that way it's a much harder sell than "it would kill the economy."

I'm not dismissing your playstyle. I'm saying it shouldn't be the load-bearing reason to block content for everyone else.

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derbe#6071 wrote:

I'm not dismissing your playstyle. I'm saying it shouldn't be the load-bearing reason to block content for everyone else.

who is this everyone else then? the same statement you posited can apply directly to you.

currently the only one asking for what you want is only you.

the only person who appeared somewhat positive towards this thread mentioned "private leagues" which is something i would agree is an option that you already have.

if you want parallel leagues, it already exists. give GGG your money and leave the rest of the community out of it.

when you say my point is a load bearing reason to block content for everyone else, do you realize how many players are doing the exact same thing as me?

do you realize that if parallel leagues were implemented, more standard players might actually stop playing poe altogether?


why do i say that? standard players are here to collect obscene power, to achieve what normally is not possible in the short duration of a single league. in temp leagues it is entirely possible to chase that sort of power in a feasible manner. put a decent amount of time and effort and you can get powerful items.

items are a great motivator for bring players back to the game. i play now because if the new belt and the imbued gems.

but with your parallel leagues, i would sooner or later come to the conclusion that its no longer feasible to get what i want.

farming 1-2 mirrors to get things that could have cost 100-200 divs is too tiring.

parallel leagues would make also introduce an environment where theres no guarantee our efforts are rewarded. for example i wanted viper strike with endurance charge imbue. i monitored for weeks before 1 actually became available. on trade only 1 is available at the moment of writing this response.

when players realize "oh i my efforts will be wasted", you know what they will do? they wont waste their time putting any effort. this translates to not playing the game anymore. FOMO is a real powerful thing. if i ever feel that i m unable to obtain something i simply dont engage. when players keep losing out. they eventually feel that they'll never get what they want and simply quit.

standard players are already a rare enough breed. temp leagues do bring some of them back. for at least a few months. but if your suggestion went thru, you're making this number smaller.

look thru at what everyone else has commented. if we dont look at standard, even the league enjoyers themselves have voiced out how it will kill the playerbase. they themselves are not interested in your suggestion.

you say you're not dismissing my playstyle but you've not proposed a single solution but instead handwaved all my concerns by just saying something akin to "its an existing problem anyway". for sure its an existing problem, but your suggestion exacerbates it to a greater extent and you conveniently don't address it.

all that said with so many people pushing back against your suggestion and with you merely defending your suggestion while not providing proper solutions that would actually address any concerns, it seems to me your suggestion would actively make the experience worse for more players.

thats pretty selfish.

private leagues exist and lets be real. there are people who DO want parallel leagues. and they want what you want. but they're also not selfish. they simply throw some cash at GGG and start their own private league. no one realizes that they're even missing from the league. everyone is happy. theyre happy they get their parallel league. i m happy i can farm stuff i want.

your suggestion carelessly takes away so many peoples happiness and could actually harm ggg's player numbers.

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exsea#1724 wrote:

your suggestion carelessly takes away so many peoples happiness and could actually harm ggg's player numbers.

It’s strange. If someone like Phox opens a fresh start for a league, literally nobody complains about it. But the moment the exact same idea is suggested with the only difference being that GGG handles the organization instead of a random content creator, suddenly people start complaining about it.

The reality is that the league is already close to dead anyway, so it would not really hurt if GGG implemented a gap closer fresh start 2 or 3 months into a league, just for the players who enjoy that fresh start experience. It does not affect the almost non existent playerbase left in the league, and it most certainly does not affect the very few people playing Standard.

It is simply a win for GGG, as it would bring back some players for a while and boost engagement during the quieter phase of a league.

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VoidWhisperer42#5989 wrote:

It’s strange. If someone like Phox opens a fresh start for a league, literally nobody complains about it. But the moment the exact same idea is suggested with the only difference being that GGG handles the organization instead of a random content creator, suddenly people start complaining about it.

did you read the part where i mentioned private league or did you just skim? i believe i did address how people dont care if its a private league so i have to assume the latter.

You make fair points, but let me address the private league argument directly because that's where I think your strongest claim actually falls apart.

Private leagues are not a substitute for what I'm describing, and here's why:

The entire proposal is about a fresh economy – emphasis on economy. A private league has 20, 50, maybe 100 people if you're lucky. That's not an economy. That's a glorified SSF group. There's no trade liquidity, no price discovery, no supply of niche items, no market for the things you yourself just spent paragraphs defending. The Viper Strike with endurance charge imbue you waited weeks for? In a private league of 50 people, it literally never drops, because the player-hours-per-rare-item math
doesn't work at that scale.

So when you say "private leagues exist, pay GGG and leave the community out of it" – you're suggesting I replace a functioning trade economy with something that fundamentally isn't one. That's not the same product. It's not even close to the same product. It's like telling someone who wants a restaurant that they can just cook at home.

The thing that makes temp leagues compelling – the thing that makes your own playstyle work, by your own description – is the density of players generating supply and demand in a fresh environment. Private leagues don't replicate that. They can't. The math doesn't allow it.

Where you're still right:

- I didn't propose concrete mitigations for supply fragmentation. That's fair criticism.
- The migration-pressure concern is real and I underweighted it.
- "It's already a problem" isn't a solution, you're correct.

Where I'd push back on the framing:

Calling it "selfish" cuts both ways. Your position also protects a specific playstyle – the Standard-feeder arbitrage – at the expense of players who've already left the league and have nothing to come back to until next cycle. We're both arguing for what we want. That's fine. But neither of us gets to claim the moral high ground here.

The honest version of this debate is: a parallel league would shift value from the Standard-extraction crowd toward the "I want fresh starts more often" crowd. You're in the first group. I'm in the second. Pretending the answer to that is "just use private leagues" sidesteps the actual question.

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exsea#1724 wrote:

did you read the part where i mentioned private league or did you just skim? i believe i did address how people dont care if its a private league so i have to assume the latter.

No, I did not skim through your message. A private league at the scale that Phox occasionally hosts is not an ordinary private league.
It effectively acts as a direct substitute for the standard league itself. Players participating in Phox’s private league or in a fresh start provided by GGG ultimately have comparable impact.

It will not change your experience or anyone else’s experience, because a dead league remains dead. Even if players who have already quit start again in a fresh start league, they are not going to magically return to the original league. So whether it is Phox, any other community hosted fresh start, or GGG properly running it as they arguably should, it makes 0 difference.

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VoidWhisperer42#5989 wrote:

It will not change your experience or anyone else’s experience, because a dead league remains dead. Even if players who have already quit start again in a fresh start league, they are not going to magically return to the original league. So whether it is Phox, any other community hosted fresh start, or GGG properly running it as they arguably should, it makes 0 difference.

i will mostly agree with you on this, and if and only if the league is effectively dead then yeah i would agree a parallel league can be justified.

i still have a little bit of reservations. because it still does impact me.
regardless as theres still the possibility players that have the item i want may just abandon the league for the new one. we do not know whats the extent that this can mean, some players give away their gear, some may delete the entire character, while some delist their items. the item i was chasing for simply.... gone.


but i would agree with parallel leagues if 2 conditions are met:

1. league player count is below 10k
2. desirable league exclusive items are common enough that players could easily obtain them.

to expand on the second point. a good example of desirable league exclusives would be uniques. many league exclusive uniques fall into the "if i get 1, i'm done" category.

for the complete opposite, league exclusives with a high RNG component is something thats not easily obtainable. disregarding the shrine belt we have right now, look at imbues. it took me weeks before i found anyone selling viper strike with endurance charge imbue. and now theres only 1 available on trade.

heavy strike with endurance charge imbue is rare too. currently being sold at what? 50 divines? i've tried making my own. 20 heavy strikes later still no hits.

so as long as the 2 criteria are met. then i would say yeah. a parallel league wont affect players.

Parallel leagues are only good for those players who want additional currency they can (against the rule) RMT off. Why else would you need the fresh economy anyway? Any build can be played in the original league. All items are available in asynch trade. The parallel league has the same rules as the original league, so no new builds can be made and no new uniques can be found. No new achievements can be unlocked, no new mtx rewards can be gained. So what is left? Currency.

I wander if OP wants a parallel league if it would be voided?