The Debate Over Experience Point Loss

Noone force you to do it. 99 easy achievable without omens. 1 skillpoint out of 123 doesn't change anything. And you can complete all challenges without it. So what's the problem?

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yummysushipjs#7638 wrote:

ORRR....

It's not a trophy and simply a way to artificially inflate game play time to keep people chasing a carrot.

No need to "master" anything. All you need to do is watch a couple YT vids, pick a "immortal" build and play white t16 maps until level cap.

You don't need to "master the economy" you just need to have a very, very basic idea of "don't need perfect stats, just decent enough stats" then buy cheaper.

You are definitionally mastering the game when you use any of those strats. Is my English Literature Master's degree negated because I went to college for 8 years and was taught the finer points of composition?

By your logic, because I was instructed by others, I have not mastered English Lit.

Educating yourself and being taught by others how to play in a certain way is, by any objective standard, mastering the game content. As is manipulating the economy to buy your way there using omens or carries. You're demonstrating your mastery of the economic segment of the game - to a degree that you can afford to effectively buy a level 100. Another options is "gettin' gud" enough to pull it off without utilizing a strong spec or currency.

As to the lack of "trophy" status, if a task is difficult, (tedium is a variety of difficulty), desired, yet unnecessary to progress in the game, it is indeed "a trophy." Level 100 fits that criteria.

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Sabranic_SilverDeth#2793 wrote:

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yummysushipjs#7638 wrote:

ORRR....

It's not a trophy and simply a way to artificially inflate game play time to keep people chasing a carrot.

No need to "master" anything. All you need to do is watch a couple YT vids, pick a "immortal" build and play white t16 maps until level cap.

You don't need to "master the economy" you just need to have a very, very basic idea of "don't need perfect stats, just decent enough stats" then buy cheaper.

You are definitionally mastering the game when you use any of those starts. Is my English Literature Master's degree negated because I went to college for 8 years and was taught the finer points of composition?

By your logic, because I was instructed by others, I have not mastered English Lit.

Educating yourself and being taught by others how to play in a certain way is in fact, mastering the game content.

As to the lack of "trophy" status, if a task is difficult, (tedium is a variety of difficulty), desired, yet unnecessary to progress in the game, it is indeed "a trophy." Level 100 fits that criteria.

So essentially if i could write a python script to follow a build guide to the letter and then just spam white t16 for 100+ hours you would argue my script has "mastered the game" while in reality it has simply followed a step by step guide?

Tedium is not difficulty, Tedium is tedium, i expect someone with an Masters Degree in English literature to know the difference

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jakob601#6439 wrote:

So essentially if i could write a python script to follow a build guide to the letter and then just spam white t16 for 100+ hours you would argue my script has "mastered the game" while in reality it has simply followed a step by step guide?

Tedium is not difficulty, Tedium is tedium, i expect someone with an Masters Degree in English literature to know the difference

Writing a cheat program would get you banned and I'd cheer for your removal from the game. Now, lets play a hypothetical - if this flavor of cheating were legal and accepted practice, YOU would have demonstrated competency in an acceptable path of progression, and YOU, who wrote the script, would have demonstrated mastery.

And enduring tedium is indeed enduring difficulty. If it's not, then you really don't appear to have much of an argument.

It's either difficult or it's not, you can't waffle circles around the issue. If it's all just "easy" where is the point of contention?

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Sabranic_SilverDeth#2793 wrote:

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jakob601#6439 wrote:

So essentially if i could write a python script to follow a build guide to the letter and then just spam white t16 for 100+ hours you would argue my script has "mastered the game" while in reality it has simply followed a step by step guide?

Tedium is not difficulty, Tedium is tedium, i expect someone with an Masters Degree in English literature to know the difference

Writing a cheat program would get you banned and I'd cheer for your removal from the game. Now, lets play a hypothetical - if this flavor of cheating were legal and accepted practice, YOU would have demonstrated mastery in an acceptable path of progression, and YOU, who wrote the script, would have demonstrated mastery.

And enduring tedium is indeed enduring difficulty. If it's not, then you really don't appear to have much of an argument.

It's either difficult or it's not, you can't waffle circles around the issue. If it's all just "easy" where is the point of contention?

So you believe enduring tedium is difficult? Then why not add even more Tedium, make us wait an hour between maps, so difficult, just wait, tediously, until you can continue, this is so incredibly difficult to do. That is what your argument about "tedium is difficulty" boils down to.
Because it isn't, Tedium is not difficulty, tedium is something that makes you quit a game in frustration.

As someone who has reached level 100 before, i can guarantee you, there is not sense of achievement, there is no great trophy or sense of accomplishment, the only thing you think is "well, i could have gotten here much earlier if they didn't hold on to an outdated and annoying mechanic.

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jakob601#6439 wrote:

So you believe enduring tedium is difficult?

If it's not "difficult," then were is the problem? No difficulty, no issue. Logic is a Greek art, and pilpul fails when contrasted.

Now, you may not like that type of difficulty, and that's fine, you're more than entitled to your opinion. But is is indeed a type of difficulty. And one near and dear to the hearts of a company named...

"Grinding Gear Games."

Honesty in advertising.

Fortunately, level 100 is not necessary. So you don't have to pursue that sort of difficulty if you want to play.

PoE is a very well designed game in that regard.

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jakob601#6439 wrote:

Then why not add even more Tedium, make us wait an hour between maps, so difficult, just wait, tediously, until you can continue, this is so incredibly difficult to do. That is what your argument about "tedium is difficulty" boils down to.

I disagree with your assessment. I don't believe this to be a valid criticism. There are many forms of difficulty. Tedium is one. Mechanical complexity might be another. Rote memorization could be a third. All are "difficult." Simply different types.

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jakob601#6439 wrote:

Because it isn't, Tedium is not difficulty, tedium is something that makes you quit a game in frustration.

Tedium is indeed a form of difficulty. Since 100 is a trophy, and not necessary, you don't have to pursue it if you find doing so unpleasing. Which is your right. I don't like breach - so I don't run them.

Again, this is why PoE is such an excellent game. You can avoid the "difficulty" types you don't enjoy. If I had to run nothing but breach, I would probably not play. But it's good we have a choice - yes? I don't have to do breach, you don't have to get 100.

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jakob601#6439 wrote:

As someone who has reached level 100 before, i can guarantee you, there is not sense of achievement, there is no great trophy or sense of accomplishment, the only thing you think is "well, i could have gotten here much earlier if they didn't hold on to an outdated and annoying mechanic.

I'm sorry that you didn't enjoy getting 100. Speaking personally, I felt really gratified when I hit 100 on both of the characters I reached it on. Felt good to see that roll over after a few weeks of hard running. And it was just difficult enough that it made the experience satisfying. The two deaths at 99 during legacy league stung, but it made 100 taste that much better.

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felix0808#2550 wrote:

Noone force you to do it. 99 easy achievable without omens. 1 skillpoint out of 123 doesn't change anything. And you can complete all challenges without it. So what's the problem?

Nobody is talking about skill points or how much player power you gain from 100, nor are they talking about the """achievement of reaching 100""". They are talking about losing the time that they already invested and spent farming the moment you die and lose 10% exp. That feels bad, that's bad game design. Losing hours or days of mapping to a 0.1 second death is pure insanity, its unacceptable. And its even more hilarious that this kind of punishment for death is in SC Trade, the easiest mode of the game. Easy mode should not have such pointlessly punishing mechanics.

Stop trying to gaslight everyone by derailing the topic and saying that its this thing, when that isn't really the thing people care about. People just care about their time not being wasted for no reason by this game. All the players have just gotten so used to the CBT mechanics in this game that they don't want to accept that no game is perfect and at some point change needs to happen. Exp loss is an outdated mechanic that was originally in MMOs and stuff to artificially inflate playtime because devs had no idea how to make any real content back then LMAO

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jakob601#6439 wrote:

As someone who has reached level 100 before, i can guarantee you, there is not sense of achievement, there is no great trophy or sense of accomplishment, the only thing you think is "well, i could have gotten here much earlier if they didn't hold on to an outdated and annoying mechanic.

Yep exactly, at the end you're just like "wow its done, now I can stop caring about exp every time I randomly die to unpredictable combinations of things in this game where its impossible to have human reflexes fast enough to react to it". You're just glad to be done with it but that's it, 0 sense of achievement or anything.

Because a tedious,boring grind where you stay in safe content all day where you couldn't possibly die on your meta suppress/block/max res/whatever build takes absolutely 0 skill. I could put up random youtube vids in the background and do that all day, anyone can. The "mechanical skill" required to do so on a tanky meta build and reach 100 is roll some rare t16s with your regex, slap them in the map device then walk by holding left click and press 1 button most of the time to clear the screen. That's not a "trophy" lol


And good riddance to exp loss in pinnacle boss fights, the gameplay loop that created before of "oh noooo I must level up before fighting Sirus,Maven etc. etc." was one of the most ridiculous things in this game.

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

Nobody is talking about skill points or how much player power you gain from 100, nor are they talking about the """achievement of reaching 100""". They are talking about losing the time that they already invested and spent farming the moment you die and lose 10% exp. That feels bad, that's bad game design.

To be honest, the exp loss below 95 is so trivial that it's not on most people's radar. Which is why the focus has shifted. 10% below 95 is .90 of a map. Ergo, since it is such a small inconvenience, most people posting here don't even regard it as an issue. It's not "gaslighting" it's simply the logical progression of the conversation.

As to your "exp deaths feel bad" point - You are correct. They do feel bad - and they're supposed to feel bad. You failed and died. This is an intentional feature of the game - because absent a penalty for failure, victory is devoid of all value. So the developers have added a - relatively minor - hit to your progression to punish either/or:

- Your sub-optimal build.
- Your sub-optimal play.
- Your bad luck.
- Your poor economic management.
- Your poor decision making.
- Your lack of game knowledge.

Struggle - aka difficulty - generates excitement. Absent struggle, you may as well be watching a Windows Progress bar march across the screen. I personally would find that unexciting, and I suspect a good number of others would as well.

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

Losing hours or days of mapping to a 0.1 death is pure insanity, its unacceptable.

Fortunately, you don't have to engage with the "leveling past 95 content" if you don't wish to. PoE is great like that. I block abyss for the same reason.

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

And its even more hilarious that this kind of punishment for death is in SC Trade, the easiest mode of the game. Easy mode should not have such pointlessly punishing mechanics.

All games have the potential for loss. The higher you strive, the greater the cost of failure. But that's what makes the accomplishment worthwhile.

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

Stop trying to gaslight everyone by derailing the topic and saying that its this thing, when that isn't really the thing people care about. People just care about their time not being wasted for no reason by this game.

Nobody is "gaslighting" you. (If I had a divine for every time someone threw around the term "narcissist" and "gaslighting" improperly, I'd be head to toe in mirror gear). The amount of time "wasted" by a death below 95 is borderline inconsequential. The time above 95 lost is intentional to generate difficulty in gaining a trophy. If you insist it's not the latter, then what is the issue...?

"Wasting time?" Path of Exile is a very very time intensive video game. By simply partaking of it, we are all squandering time. Nothing of real world value or significance is produced in Wraeclast. What this boils down to, is that you are asking to have challenge removed - and people who enjoy the difficulty are disagreeing. And this frustrates you.

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

All the players have just gotten so used to the CBT mechanics in this game that they don't want to accept that no game is perfect and at some point change needs to happen. Exp loss is an outdated mechanic that was originally in MMOs and stuff to artificially inflate playtime because devs had no idea how to make any real content back then LMAO

You are incorrect. EXP loss in its current incarnation, originated in table-top role playing games such as Dungeons and Dragons, Gurps and Palladium. It then spread to MUDS, early MMO's and console video games in the late 80's and early 1990's. EXP loss always was - and still is - a punishment for dying.

Looks like the other duplicate thread was locked, I wonder how long it will take until this one is locked too.