Build Showcase - Honourable Mentions

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Blooper#6330 wrote:

Thanks for proving my point? You literally cleared all content as sorc - that's the definition of playable. Having to invest 400 hours and craft your own gear isn't "unplayable," it's called progression in an ARPG.
The fact that you needed specific gear and had to work for it doesn't make the class broken, it makes it challenging. Not everything needs to be handed to players on a silver platter. If 10% can do it consistently, that means it's possible and the other 90% need to improve their approach or accept they're not at endgame level yet.
Your own success story kind of undermines your "unplayable" argument, don't you think?

Not really. For the average person they aren't going to be able to play sorceress. They are probably going to get stuck on Jamanra in the campaign and not want to spend 10 hours grinding levels and gear in keth just to beat one boss. The time investment will make the class "unplayable" to most people. Just like Mount Everest is "unclimbable" for most people. I think you should try a SSF run of sorceress and you'll see it's out of most people's reach.

For context 400 hours is ~1/5th the amount of time the average person spends working in a year (1768 hours) so that's unreachable for most people in 2-4 months.

Nah, it doesn't. POE in general is already well-known to be pretty unfriendly to more casual gamers.
Now, for POE 2, they doubled down on that even more with the few frustrating crafting options available and their ludicrously expensive cost, which is 100% totally out of reach for anyone that doesn't invest insane amounts of time.
Being ok with that equates to saying that only the most hardcore gamers can achieve success. I don't feel that is the right approach and so i don't agree that that invalidates his argument. If you're just trying to be right at any cost, sure, you could take 'unplayable' in the most literal sense and play it out like that, but if you read between the lines and evaluate what he intends,
then i agree

in a meantime, it's been 3 weeks since the last meaningfull update on POE2 in announcements.

Most things are not ok (but this an early).
I think the pace of progression is ok.
I am too playing a sorceress, cold chronomancer. This build was totally nerfed in 0.2, but I started one anyway. I do not buy any equipment (only exchange currencies).
At times, I really struggled with either mana problems, or damage, or resists. But then I spent time trying to change my build, make it evolve. So to solve the problem, but also to adapt to my gear. Or change the build temporarily, favoring protection over damage, so to reach a point where I could again make a more risky build thanks to skill resets.
I am not a hardcore player, but yes i have 400 hours since the beginning of the early.
Is POE2 endgame for the casual gamer ? Not so much, but anyone can have fun in the campaign. Some games are made to be beat by anyone, some other not, but it does not mean they are not fun to everyone.
When I started the game, I enjoyed the campaign, and had no idea about the endgame. And I was pretty happy, even if my progression was slow or even halted at times.

And of course, you can play the build of the moment if you really want to beat everything.

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DankWeebTrash#7386 wrote:

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Blooper#6330 wrote:

Thanks for proving my point? You literally cleared all content as sorc - that's the definition of playable. Having to invest 400 hours and craft your own gear isn't "unplayable," it's called progression in an ARPG.
The fact that you needed specific gear and had to work for it doesn't make the class broken, it makes it challenging. Not everything needs to be handed to players on a silver platter. If 10% can do it consistently, that means it's possible and the other 90% need to improve their approach or accept they're not at endgame level yet.
Your own success story kind of undermines your "unplayable" argument, don't you think?

Not really. For the average person they aren't going to be able to play sorceress. They are probably going to get stuck on Jamanra in the campaign and not want to spend 10 hours grinding levels and gear in keth just to beat one boss. The time investment will make the class "unplayable" to most people. Just like Mount Everest is "unclimbable" for most people. I think you should try a SSF run of sorceress and you'll see it's out of most people's reach.

For context 400 hours is ~1/5th the amount of time the average person spends working in a year (1768 hours) so that's unreachable for most people in 2-4 months.

That's a pretty weird comparison honestly. ARPGs aren't supposed to be accessible to everyone at every level - that's literally the entire genre. If you're getting stuck on Jamanra you probably need to learn the mechanics instead of blaming the class.
I've done SSF sorc and yeah it's tough, but that's the point. The game shouldn't be balanced around people who won't put in basic effort to understand builds or gear progression. Your Everest analogy is backwards - this is more like complaining that intermediate ski slopes are too hard when you refuse to practice on the bunny hill.
Also bringing up work hours is kind of ridiculous. Nobody's forcing anyone to rush endgame in 2 months. Play at your own pace or pick an easier class.

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Blooper#6330 wrote:

ARPGs aren't supposed to be accessible to everyone at every level - that's literally the entire genre. If you're getting stuck on Jamanra you probably need to learn the mechanics instead of blaming the class.
I've done SSF sorc and yeah it's tough, but that's the point. The game shouldn't be balanced around people who won't put in basic effort to understand builds or gear progression

Nobody said anything about basic effort. The point he's trying to make is that for some classes/skills, even the words 'massive effort' would barely scratch the surface. And yes, the game shouldn't be balanced around such high requirements. Some classes are way harder to grind through the campaign and some skills will not reach end-game and that's not a matter of skill or time invested. It's garbage design.

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keppie#6373 wrote:

Nobody said anything about basic effort. The point he's trying to make is that for some classes/skills, even the words 'massive effort' would barely scratch the surface. And yes, the game shouldn't be balanced around such high requirements. Some classes are way harder to grind through the campaign and some skills will not reach end-game and that's not a matter of skill or time invested. It's garbage design.

I Appreciate the defence. However, It's not worth arguing with a top percentage player that only sees the world through their eyes. We will never convince him that the average player experience matters. Yall have a good day.

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keppie#6373 wrote:

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Blooper#6330 wrote:

ARPGs aren't supposed to be accessible to everyone at every level - that's literally the entire genre. If you're getting stuck on Jamanra you probably need to learn the mechanics instead of blaming the class.
I've done SSF sorc and yeah it's tough, but that's the point. The game shouldn't be balanced around people who won't put in basic effort to understand builds or gear progression

Nobody said anything about basic effort. The point he's trying to make is that for some classes/skills, even the words 'massive effort' would barely scratch the surface. And yes, the game shouldn't be balanced around such high requirements. Some classes are way harder to grind through the campaign and some skills will not reach end-game and that's not a matter of skill or time invested. It's garbage design.

I have to respectfully disagree here. You're conflating two different issues - campaign difficulty spikes versus genuine skill/gear imbalances.

When someone gets bodied by Jamanra repeatedly, that's usually a L2P issue, not "garbage design." The boss has clear telegraphs and counter-play. If certain skills legitimately can't reach endgame that's one thing, but most campaign struggles I see are people face-tanking everything then crying about balance.

Sure, some ascendancies have it rougher early on - but that's always been the ARPG formula. Monk might struggle more than Witch Hunter in Act 1, but both are absolutely viable with proper planning. The genre has never been about making every build path equally easy from minute one.

"Massive effort" is kind of the point of these games though, isn't it?

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DankWeebTrash#7386 wrote:

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keppie#6373 wrote:

Nobody said anything about basic effort. The point he's trying to make is that for some classes/skills, even the words 'massive effort' would barely scratch the surface. And yes, the game shouldn't be balanced around such high requirements. Some classes are way harder to grind through the campaign and some skills will not reach end-game and that's not a matter of skill or time invested. It's garbage design.

I Appreciate the defence. However, It's not worth arguing with an eleitest that only sees the world through their eyes. We will never convince him that the average player experience matters. Yall have a good day.

calling someone an "elitist" just because they don't agree with your take is pretty weak. The game's been out for what, a few weeks? Maybe instead of rage-quitting discussions, we could actually figure out what's working and what isn't.

Some skills being harder doesn't automatically make it "garbage design" - it might just mean they need tweaks or you need to adapt your approach. But hey, if you'd rather storm off than have an actual conversation about balance, that's your call I guess.

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Blooper#6330 wrote:

calling someone an "elitist" just because they don't agree with your take is pretty weak. The game's been out for what, a few weeks? Maybe instead of rage-quitting discussions, we could actually figure out what's working and what isn't.

Some skills being harder doesn't automatically make it "garbage design" - it might just mean they need tweaks or you need to adapt your approach. But hey, if you'd rather storm off than have an actual conversation about balance, that's your call I guess.

I have edited my comment to better express what I meant. I'm not mad, just don't care to try and convince you that most players aren't going to want to play sorceress because of the time to fun ratio. Have a good day.