lol... Why call it crafting? It's just gambling.

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Pizzarugi#6258 wrote:

This isn't a proper thought experiment. You're comparing a fun game among friends to pooling resources you worked for into a mechanic, hoping you get what you want even if you risk losing it all.

Again, I've made my argument clear: If you put in currency that you worked to obtain, and you're not guaranteed to get the desired outcome, you are gambling. I've been consistent on this claim since I first posted in this thread.

My analogy fits perfectly. Winning or losing at a friendly poker game is simply a matter of getting a desired outcome from an investment of your free time. As already established, PoE currency has no value so what you're actually "risking" is time. Time spent playing a video game.

So I'll ask again, were we gambling in our hypothetical zero-stakes poker game, and if not why SPECIFICALLY is that the case?

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ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate#2605 wrote:

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Pizzarugi#6258 wrote:

This isn't a proper thought experiment. You're comparing a fun game among friends to pooling resources you worked for into a mechanic, hoping you get what you want even if you risk losing it all.

Again, I've made my argument clear: If you put in currency that you worked to obtain, and you're not guaranteed to get the desired outcome, you are gambling. I've been consistent on this claim since I first posted in this thread.

My analogy fits perfectly. Winning or losing at a friendly poker game is simply a matter of getting a desired outcome from an investment of your free time. As already established, PoE currency has no value so what you're actually "risking" is time. Time spent playing a video game.

So I'll ask again, were we gambling in our hypothetical zero-stakes poker game, and if not why SPECIFICALLY is that the case?

We're going to disagree based on perspective. You believe currency in this game has no value. I do. If I put in time and effort to obtain the currency, then it implicitly holds value. If we cannot agree on this, then the thought experiment is meaningless.

My argument has always been about the value of currency, both in obtaining it, and in using it. Friends giving you chips to play a game of poker has no value, thus you have nothing to lose.

And here's the critical part of where your thought experiment fails: GGG isn't handing you mirrors and telling you to go crazy with "crafting". You have to earn those mirrors, you have to sink time and effort into obtaining those mirrors.

This is more akin to having a poker game with your friends, but they expect you to earn your own chips, and they do high-stakes only.

EDIT:
Because I know someone's going to come in and say I'm asking for a cost-free crafting system: No, I am not. I am asking for mechanics which guarantees specific crafting outcomes, even if it comes at a high price.

Harvest is literally right there. GGG could rework it to have the old crafts it had with a steep lifeforce cost, but they chose to gut the whole thing.

Please stop straw manning my argument and engage with the hypothetical.

Why, specifically, is time invested in a card game played for fun different from time invested in a video game played for fun?

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ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate#2605 wrote:

Please stop straw manning my argument and engage with the hypothetical.

Why, specifically, is time invested in a card game played for fun different from time invested in a video game played for fun?

Because this video game has progression, you cannot progress without acquiring better gear, and you cannot acquire better gear without gambling or trading.

I'm not strawmanning, you simply refuse to engage in the points I am making about "crafting" being built from the ground up around gambling. Just because you don't put value in the currency necessary to engage in it, doesn't mean my arguments are strawmanning.

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Pizzarugi#6258 wrote:

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ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate#2605 wrote:

Please stop straw manning my argument and engage with the hypothetical.

Why, specifically, is time invested in a card game played for fun different from time invested in a video game played for fun?

Because this video game has progression, you cannot progress without acquiring better gear, and you cannot acquire better gear without gambling or trading.

I'm not strawmanning, you simply refuse to engage in the points I am making about "crafting" being built from the ground up around gambling. Just because you don't put value in the currency necessary to engage in it, doesn't mean my arguments are strawmanning.

A poker game also has progression. Amassing more chips gives you more control over how the betting unfolds, allowing you to force an all-in from your opponents at a time you think most advantageous.

You still have not answered the question I've now asked at least 3 times: what makes time spent playing one game different from time spent playing a different game?

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ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate#2605 wrote:

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Pizzarugi#6258 wrote:

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ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate#2605 wrote:

Please stop straw manning my argument and engage with the hypothetical.

Why, specifically, is time invested in a card game played for fun different from time invested in a video game played for fun?

Because this video game has progression, you cannot progress without acquiring better gear, and you cannot acquire better gear without gambling or trading.

I'm not strawmanning, you simply refuse to engage in the points I am making about "crafting" being built from the ground up around gambling. Just because you don't put value in the currency necessary to engage in it, doesn't mean my arguments are strawmanning.

A poker game also has progression. Amassing more chips gives you more control over how the betting unfolds, allowing you to force an all-in from your opponents at a time you think most advantageous.

You still have not answered the question I've now asked at least 3 times: what makes time spent playing one game different from time spent playing a different game?

That isn't progression. Let's be for real about this. That's more akin with "crafting", making a GG item, and selling it so you can "craft" even more expensive items.

I am not going to answer that question, because it's irrelevant to the conversation. I'm arguing that "crafting" is gambling, which it is, because the currency you have to put time and effort into obtaining has to be spent to engage with it and you're not guaranteed a desired outcome.

It doesn't matter if the currency has IRL value or not. It's a resource. If you put in effort to obtain that resource, you utilize that resource to create something, and it doesn't give you the desired results, you gambled it away.

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Pizzarugi#6258 wrote:

It's a resource. If you put in effort to obtain that resource, you utilize that resource to create something, and it doesn't give you the desired results, you gambled it away.

You mean like poker chips you lose when you don't win a particular hand during a poker game?

You keep saying the questions I'm asking aren't relevant, but all you've done is prove that they ARE relevant and you just don't like the way they all make sense.

4th time: What makes time spent playing one game different from time spent playing a different game?

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ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate#2605 wrote:

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Pizzarugi#6258 wrote:

It's a resource. If you put in effort to obtain that resource, you utilize that resource to create something, and it doesn't give you the desired results, you gambled it away.

You mean like poker chips you lose when you don't win a particular hand during a poker game?

You keep saying the questions I'm asking aren't relevant, but all you've done is prove that they ARE relevant and you just don't like the way they all make sense.

4th time: What makes time spent playing one game different from time spent playing a different game?

I know what you're trying to do with that question. The end result of my answering it is going to be an excuse for you to disengage from this conversation or dismiss my claim entirely, because there is no difference.

I don't like my time being disrespected by gambling away my resources I worked to acquire, thus I don't engage in "crafting".

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Pizzarugi#6258 wrote:

Spoiler

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ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate#2605 wrote:

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Pizzarugi#6258 wrote:

It's a resource. If you put in effort to obtain that resource, you utilize that resource to create something, and it doesn't give you the desired results, you gambled it away.

You mean like poker chips you lose when you don't win a particular hand during a poker game?

You keep saying the questions I'm asking aren't relevant, but all you've done is prove that they ARE relevant and you just don't like the way they all make sense.

4th time: What makes time spent playing one game different from time spent playing a different game?

I know what you're trying to do with that question. The end result of my answering it is going to be an excuse for you to disengage from this conversation or dismiss my claim entirely, because there is no difference.

I don't like my time being disrespected by gambling away my resources I worked to acquire, thus I don't engage in "crafting".

So you agree there is no difference, and by your definition a friendly poker game for no money would also count as gambling.

That's exactly what I said two pages ago, I don't know why you pushed back so hard just to agree with the thing I said you were saying.

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ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate#2605 wrote:

So you agree there is no difference, and by your definition a friendly poker game for no money would also count as gambling.

That's exactly what I said two pages ago, I don't know why you pushed back so hard just to agree with the thing I said you were saying.

No, that's you trying to make both sound exactly the same, and you know it. Nobody in their right mind would call a casual game between friends gambling when the stakes aren't real. You're just playing to have fun and have a good time.

This is exactly why I said this situation with PoE crafting is more akin to your friends demanding you earn your own chips. This is exactly why I said this thought experiment doesn't work, because GGG doesn't hand you currency and tell you to go wild.

There is a huge difference here, and it's why I didn't want to engage in it.