Minions need a massive change
" Which means you are spending a valuable specter on just maintaining charges. there are other ways to go about this that do not need to use a whole minion for it. But also means you are dedicating gem space and passive investment to keep that minion alive. This means capping resists, adding meat shield, for difficult maps. it usually means capping block on them, adding max res , adding leech, adding life regen etc. That is not a trivial thing todo for what amounts to a very bad level 10ish vitality aura and endurance charge generation. Not saying the warlord is bad or not worth it, but it is disingenuous to say its free charges. It also has a 1 div price tag. " Ah yes a level 10ish discipline is incredibly impactful especially one with no aura effect. " Again I would argue that it is EXTREMELY disingenuous to say its "free" At the bare minimum it requires burning a t0 unique that usually costs 2 - 3 divine as well as dedicating passives and gem slots to make sure this so called "free fortify" doesn't suddenly pop to a random essence mob and start costing real money to replace. There is a reason you do not see this "free" fortify on non summoners. " no invest.... put those on your non summoner right now and see how long they last, figure out what gems you need to drop to fit them in , figure out what stats on your gear and what passives on the tree you will need to drop to get their defenses that actually work. And then come back here and tell me "no investment" I dare you. " And the bottom part of the tree has access to more physical mitigation and block. I do not see the issue here. " Do we have 8 mods on gear pre corruption now or something? " I can argue that you can do the same with any other build though. Also nothing stopping you from using that op shield what summoners have going for them is that they are relatively cheap to gear and play in the mid to high range. But the trade off is their ultra high end just does not go as far as other builds can. they cannot clear as fast, kill bosses as well, run sanctum as efficiently etc. they are a jack of all trades but they are not the king of anything. " Don't bring standard into this, there is so much busted crap on standard that I could make a toothpick god tier in there. " Gee that almost sounds like a healthy interesting and intentional trade off. " Is is really surprising that a build using temporary minions that die anyway in a few seconds and are replaced every second would not care about reflect? I would argue that SRS plays very little like a traditional summoner anyway ; more like homing fireball that scales on minion damage. I should also point out that using a selection of specific minions that historically were/are over performing is not a good method for making broad assumptions on an entire build archetype. SRS has been busted strong for most of its existence and is infamous for how little you need to invest into it for it to be strong. Perhaps this more than anything else is why you have the opinions you have because absolutely SRS is a low investment build that can totally dump most of its nodes into defenses and not give two shits about it. " Of course it was better at +2 that is why it was nerfed because it was a vacuous.... mindless... painfully obvious non choice. Its not that reflect was a huge issue, it is that reflect was a huge annoyance. Yeah I could always resummon my minions if they popped on a slightly too dense blob of enemies in a reflect map. But that feels like ass unless your minions are always temporary. And yeah If you use temporary minions reflect is a non issue. But have you seriously never played a summoner where you accidentally rolled a reflect map that popped your damage dealing specters and you had to leave the map and resummon them? That never happen to you? Because I don't know about you. but that would be annoying enough for me to reroll off reflect. which would mean needing to id or accept that id just open a map and not run it. Id happily get rid of that issue with 2 ascendancy points. it is not even a question worth asking. Last edited by Saltychipmunk on Sep 10, 2024, 8:51:50 AM
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AG needed addressing a looooooooooooooooooooooooong time ago so i kind have ran out of hope they would do so and its a real can of worms for summoners in general.
There are some good thoughts in here too but nothing that seems particularly new, I don't think there are a shortage of ideas for how to improve minions I think its making GGG care enough to do some of them. In a way that's OK, minions had their year or so where they absolutely dominated and they are far from unplayable now just have teething issues still. But i'd still like them to be updated. #1 for me is probably 3 things actually Spectres need their corpse system updating so you can't lose them because you took gems out in the wrong place or briefly lost dex etc - I think having them as loot is excellent and interesting but this needs a facelift. Zombies need a big buff as they are by far away the worst, just stats, every kind of stats. The bullshit summon condition skills (Absolution/Dom blow/doggos) need something else as hybrids don't work, stacking cast speed so you can get absolution out on bosses feels garbage, using worm far garbage, no better dom blow minions garbage etc and it holds all of these skills back. Skellies, Spectres, SRS, Spiders, Reaper (borderline) are all fine atm. No idea about golems I haven't played a golem build since elementalists passives got rejigged slightly. |
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" A div is not an "investment", stop it. Are we new to the game here? You have 36 challenges and talk about hundreds of millions of dps so you dont have to answer that one. A div is not an "investment". Especially for the buffs it gives you, About the only thing right in your post is the vitality is weak, its around lvl 9. Still extra regen you are getting. How is your currect necro generating endurance charges by the way? I see you specced an extra one on the tree so youre using them. And you dont have enduring cry, or anything else generating them. Please do not say this node and think its a better option than NOT having that spectre:
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 I have no idea why you have that node in the first place, its your choice to have it. But it is such a horrible choice for 4 points on the tree.... You brought up choices by the way. Spending a valuable spectre.... on a valuable spectre lmfao. You put spectres with your AG so everything about links in your post is irrelevant. It takes life and meatshield. Which you did on your build lol. And every other summoner that has AG and spectres. Its all in the same 4 link.
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" .... LOOOOOL!!!!! The discipline is not level 10 my friend. I am guessing you dont run it as you dont have any ES, but ... here let me show you how much it does with my character in standard THAT HAS this spectre.
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Without Judgemental Spirit: 2490 ES  With Judgemental Spirit: 3193 ES  POB Discipline to find its level: Not level 10 thats for sure  Its above level 20  Judgemental spirit also gives two offerings periodically (fire and chaos offering) for damage, and does a decent volley as well for summoning extra skeletons.
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" Again who are you arguing for these prices? Cause its not you and not me... pretty much noone here in this thread either. 2-3 divs is not an "investment". We have kingmaker when we want to get it, we arent new to the game. Stop with the links and gem slots thing you keep repeating. You did this in your build, I did this in my build(s), pretty much EVERYONE WHO USES AG DOES THIS IN THEIR BUILD(s). You make it sound like people are forgoing some massive amount of power by taking AG, which they aren't.
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" What is this argument? Why would I put these on a non summoner when I SPECIFICALLY SAID, that its no investment for a >>>summoner<<< Because guess what comes with playing a summoner? All the life nodes, all the proper defensives on the tree, all the minion defense nodes, all the minion life nodes, any offerings as well... What are you even on about here??
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" " The point is you get this WITH all the other things I mentioned that you cut from this post. You dont snip out the entire context of a conversation and think I'm ONLY talking about spell block/block and ES.
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" What?
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" What are you talking about? I am telling you the stats on your build and the fact that you do 200+m damage that you mentioned above is unnecessary. And there was extremely cheap/no investment in defense for that unnecessary damage. You can do this on builds but there is a magnitude of difference between what a melee character with a 2h axe/2h sword has to do to get that much tank or a bow user, vs a summoner with a shield. With bow users probably not even having the ability to scale defensive's that high. Pennies on summoner versus all the options on the other archetypes listed above.
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" My affliction summoner has no broken items but actually WORSE items than what you can make on live. Its from affliction. If I wanted to buy the new bases and roll them, my character would be extremely tankier than what it is now, probably 3x the ES and a good 2k more life.
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" I dont know if you are paying attention anymore with these responses. The point of what I am saying here is you are giving up, stupid easy to access (no investment) defensive's, for a bunch of unnecessary offense.
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" Wow... Okay so you know that summon skelemages functions the exact same way, they just dont move. Summon holy relic of conviction build plays like a bow user https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-Rfr4N-C3k Oh look at what spectre hes using. Imagine that.... not. Im guessing this is the build you followed. And was equally broken as it was last league in necropolis. SRS has been nerfed several times. And is MUCH less broken than Summon Holy Relic is by about a factor of 20. I dont really know what plays as a "traditional summoner" here.
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" Their reasoning for it was a stupid reason. "We dont like Necromancer being the strongest summoner choice" Never had an issue with reflect as minions. Blessed rebirth cluster. People that have an issue with reflect can just.... reroll the map as well. Many archetypes cant do reflect rather than needing an ascendancy of 2 points for it and forcing people into chaos damage, it could be something else. .... like +2 to Level of all Minion Skill Gems????? "Just goes to show your complete lack of knowledge on the matter. If you had any actual experience with melee" -Melee "Expert"
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" A div is factually an investment especially on a mechanic you permanently lose. I've lost 3 perfect warlords. Just because you and I can wave our digital dicks around and afford the price does not mean there is no investment cost. Stop pretending like it doesn't exist to suit your argument.
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" before I could afford to lose a perfect warlord I was using enduring composure on a cluster jewel, 3 passive investment, 1 chaos jewel.
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" Why yes I did burn 4 whole gem slots to provide a base line level of durability for my minons. I also got 21 gems , and a +2 corruption on that hat. Last time I checked, getting a specific corruption, burning 4 gems slots and buying 21 versions of gems is not free .. which was your initial assertion. Its wrong. move on. Its hard to take your arguments seriously when you are blatantly ignoring the forest for the trees.
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" Do I really have to explain gem socket pressure to a bloke who is 40/40? What is this? It is always a trade off, you trade off one set of skills that may benefit you for another. Me taking a 4link for utility minions means I can't have a 4l damage skill there. We measure up the options and find the one that fits our requirements the most, It just so happens that right now the most attractive thing to do is burn a 4l on utility minions. pre affliction specters the math for that was far less convincing Just because the meta for minions is stale and everyone has reached the same conclusion does not change the fact that conclusion has a cost.
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" What is a summoner? I just got done helping a pathfinder with his minions. Is he not a summoner? Because the main issue he needed help with was his guardian and spectres, which you assert is functionally free for a summoner, were dying constantly in t17s. You act like everyone just has all these passives invested into their minions as a given when it is not the case.
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" Factually incorrect. You can make a summoner and take none of them. I think you are forgetting that those passives, despite being an obvious choice for summoners, are still a choice that has to be made.
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" Incorrect, skeletons are targetable. SRS are not. This means you can ignore the durability of srs and too an extend cannot for skeletons. which is why you need to take things like rebirth for them to function properly. ITs a hack to fix a busted concept.
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" Correct, under the current meta the most viable summoners tend to be the ones that act the least like a summoner. The only real hold out is the zoomancer And yes the build I am currently playing, Holy relic, is a joke of a summoner. it is a cast on hit spell caster with almost the range of a bow user and anyone who thinks otherwise is lying to themselves. Last edited by Saltychipmunk on Sep 10, 2024, 1:29:22 PM
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" A div is an investment for only players that just started the game. Everyone can get this early and easily. You are arguing semantics versus reality. The fact you have lost 4 means a hard build issue is happening. Which is fine to have, but it shouldnt be happening at all. Especially with minion life/meat shield. Warlords pretty much dont die with immortal call and their constant cast of enduring cry. Its good that you learned something about spirit of fortune as well, as its not level 10 discipline.
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" Again you shouldnt have warlords dropping dead. This is a build issue.
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" You dont need +2 socketed minion gems, thats just something you can have for end game min/max.... hiyaaaa You dont even need a corruption either ... just get a +2 socketed delve explicit on the boots instead.... Its hard to take your arguments seriously when you think you need +2 for anything but min/max.... let alone it being a corruption.... You dont even need +minions anywhere to finish all content in the game, its just there for min/max.... Why just why.... are you that reliant on omega gear?
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" Okay .... What? You dont get nothing from taking an AG.... you get a lot of offense and defense from using it. The best of both actually for minions, thats why people take it. Even without affliction spectres you would STILL TAKE spectres for the frenzy apes, drox mob, pale saraphim... You make it sound like there is some hard trade off that you would get something better than what an AG or spectre provides for minions... there isnt one. And has never been one. As for socket pressure... you wouldnt have any if you would just use unsent rings..... please help.
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" .... This is a joke right? What ... I dont know....this might be crazy and all. What stuff does a pathfinder trait and USE if they are running spectres? It cant be minion clusters and an elegant hubris could it? No ... no way. Their tree and gear setup for having minions??? This is unheard of for a minion player.
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    Is this how all your perfect warlords died? You just had 0 minion gear and nodes slotted on the tree? With the t17s and stuff constantly dying you are telling me whoever these people are have... terrible minion builds. Or not ready for t17 minion builds. Or are rolling mods that they should not be rolling.
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" Yea congratulations you would have made the worst minion build you could ever have thought of. Its a choice to roll a terrible idea for a build you are correct. Seriously is this how all your warlords died? Just 0 nodes on the tree, no minion modifiers anywhere on your gear, but attempting to run minions? A not-minion build.... trying to run minion skills. Thats .... Well thats an idea for sure. You realize to have a build for minions or summoner you actually have to... build for it right?
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" What are you even trying to say here? You realize just because SRS cant be targeted doesn't mean they are immune from damage right? You take blessed rebirth for both summon skeles and SRS. Without it they almost immediately die. Please do your research... SRS you have the luxury of just going to ninja and looking what people have Summon skele mages just lookup an old guide.... "Just goes to show your complete lack of knowledge on the matter. If you had any actual experience with melee" -Melee "Expert"
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I really don't want AG to go if anything i'd like to see it expanded along with a buff to spectre QOL by adding in the altar to store them so you can mess with your gear or manage your guardians equipment when in your hideout.
It could allow for management of multiple guardians too which would be an amazing build to play and has always been a bit of a daydream even though AG is kind of annoying to use and can be pretty harsh when it dies in good gear. On dominating blow, Always had higher hopes for this one as the minion for either the marauder or the duelist though thematically duelist seems best fitted to "dominate" his enemies so much that they just "join him" out of idk, respect. Call it what you want but to see the game evolve from the necromancer being the primary minion build to almost every build having its own minions and access to minions in general has been pretty fun and some excitement still remains for the future. ^ The only thing that's really missing is a Parasite skill for the ranger or a "charm" type skill to turn (creatures) into pets. Innocence forgives you Last edited by SilentSymphony on Sep 10, 2024, 3:36:20 PM
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" What you are describing goes past the scope of a skill gem and probably should be something else entirely. More like the merc system from d2. Last edited by Saltychipmunk on Sep 11, 2024, 7:23:32 AM
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" I'll take whatever i can get, Some mmorpgs allow you to create custom companions and even play with your friends characters while they are offline. the more the merrier. Innocence forgives you
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i have not played much with minion builds so my knowledge is limited but something that keeps me away from them is how mediocre their skill tree feels.
*all nodes are concentrated in the witch/templar area *nodes are for the most part super generic wish they would spread them more across the tree with with specific nodes for instance: generic minion nodes moved to the scion area marauder/duelist area gets couple wheels related to animate weapons/AG templar gets a minion wheel specific to herald of purity/absolution/domination blow minions. witch gets a wheel for zombies / skeletons shadow gets a wheel for spectres ranger could get something related to golems self found league fan
http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/324242/page/1 | |
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The problem with more specific nodes is that there just is not enough space for them realistically.
The best they could do is possible splitting minion damage between attacks and spells But you have to keep in mind that despite what some other people have said in this thread Minion builds generally have to waste more points on keeping their damage skills alive on top of investing into making that skill do more damage and ensuring your own character is tough enough to not die to everything. That already spreads your passives pretty far and it would make things feel much worse if you had to specifically path farther to a node that works for your brand of minion build while skip closer ones. It also is not really conducive to how limited the in game information is for minions. Do you actually know what damage type most minions do? Sure for many of the classic skill gems its obvious. but throw specters in and you need to go to a third party sight just to see a breakdown for what skills they are actually using and what tags they have. Its a bit complicated already I guess is what I am getting at. That being said I do believe it is a mistake to limit minion passives to the top left of the tree. |
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