[3.9] Physical Conversion Bowyer | Wander [TS/LA/IS + Barrage] [KB + Power Siphon] [All Content]

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z4ktan wrote:

Spoiler

So I just read your barrage support + PS vs. barrage as main skill post calculations and I have to add that when they released the skill info at level 5 I did some of the same calculations myself and added to my PoB the effective multipliers to see which one would come on top. And at the time my conclusion was that for PS to be on top you need a level 21 (as it adds another projectile) and it ended up being around 8-10% more damage compared to the normal barrage (yes, i removed a support gem to count for barrage support). Altho for a dual-wielding setup it seems PS is weaker because one of the big strengths to dual-wielding is the more attack speed you get from the passive bonus and that gets destroyed by barrage support base attack time per projectile. I don't know if what I'm saying here is interesting for people in here, but I hope it helps a bit.

Edit1: forgot to mention this is for my standard wander, I assume a league wander will be affected roughly the same.

As a continuation to the edit for some additional info:
Because of multimod nerf now you'll need to craft with alt spam, beast imprint and regal, and in the end it will cost more BUT the result is that you'll have more base damage than before (not counting the wand base damage buff), because now you'll want something like merciless + flaring + new t1 attack speed to multimod ele pen + crit chance (for a similar style of the current wand). This means wanders are back to being gated behind huge amounts of wealth (which was kinda still the case in the past few leagues, but it's been really cheap compared to the old days of wanding as LL). The biggest loss in my opinion will be the gloves as the crafted mods for gloves are unrivalled for dps increases (better than a legacy tombfist, aka with attack speed, if you can get intimidate somewhere else) but hopefully with a bit more theorycrafting and shuffling mods around it won't hurt too bad to drop some dps crafted mods from the gloves for rolled ones, I imagine you can do something like t1 life + t1 attack speed + something else and multimod the rest.

Edit2: I guess I'll leave the effective calculation for attack speed modifier from the barrage support (assuming it is static and doesn't change with gem levels) for anyone interested in their theorycrafting before localidentity updates the forked pob:
(1-(1.05^<amount of projs>)^(-1))% less attack speed

Yes I got around the same values. Power Siphon isn't that much better, although the culling strike component contributes variable amounts of DPS depending on your overall DPS. For a temp league setup it should provide ~600k extra dps against Shaper, which isn't too significant. For your setup it's probably around ~1.2mil dps.

To alt spam + regal + beastcraft a wand similar to levels pre 3.9, the cost would make it too impractical. In standard, it wouldn't even be worth doing as you'd probably save money buying a mirrored wand off the secondhand market.

The rings can somewhat be replaced with synthesis unique rings (circle of fear), which would maintain the same level of DPS but lose out on LGOH and max life. This would require more investment into life on the tree.

I think the best option now is to craft using Deafening essences of contempt and stopping once you hit a decent combination of 3 mods, apply some annuls if necessary etc.

Edit: I forgot to mention that with the 4 new types of exalted orbs, there is potential to compensate for some of the nerfs, for example the OP tailwind if crit mod.

Sorry for the double post guys, this is just to post about the gem info and some of my thoughts.


Here are the relevant "Awakened" gems.

Ele Focus (54% more damage) up from 49%

WED (59% more damage) up from 54%

Added Cold (25% more flat than regular version)

Cold Pen (42% cold pen) up from 37%

Vicious Proj (64% more phys damage) up from 59%

Almost all awakened supports come with 10% extra increased damage per gem at 20 qual.

The Ele Focus + WED gems together give ~7% more overall DPS. The biggest boost to damage will come from the Added Cold. Cold Pen might be an option once again considering nerfs to ele pen and buffs to monster resistances.

GMP is going to be really nice, the awakened version has 5 instead of 4, which'll help with KB clear and makes getting pathfinder flask effect less necessary.

Oh yeah all the gems shown are lvl 5, which leaves a ton of room for increases in damage at lvl 20. I think buffs to these gems will definitely overcompensate for the nerf to Point Blank, and in combination with wand base damage increase + new mod pool + jewelry quality will probably compensate for all the nerfs. (actually... I vaguely recall GGG mentioning somewhere that the new gems only go up to lvl 5, but I'm not entirely sure. That would make a lot more sense but I hope I'm wrong about this)

Now the question remains... how rare will these gems be? If they're multiple exalts each (which they probably will be) that'll suck. Let's cross our fingers.


Now that dex stacking archetype has been nerfed by quite a bit, it's very possible that Phys conversion w/ Voidfletcher will be the highest DPS end-game bow build out there. There will definitely be a higher cost barrier given the lower Voidfletcher/Arborix drop rate, but Arborix has been buffed with higher base crit and built in crit multi. We'll have to wait and see I guess. Let's hope those bases aren't as rare as what we currently expect.


My biggest disappointment still remains the multimod nerf since I spent so much time/effort to organize this build around multimods in order to maintain a level of consistency for those w/ less POB experience. Now that multimodding is probably not worth the price tag (2 ex for 2 mods??) I'll probably have to introduce more trade links.

Yeah the new Awakened gems only go up to level 5. With bow builds being really popular this Metamorph league, the gems relevant to our build (GMP, added cold,..) will go up in price as well so I'm not holding my breath for those.

I'm not the kind of player who runs away at the first glance of nerfs but I think I will league start with another build first and then come back to this once I got everything figured out. Chaos DOT build is looking juicy as always.

Gonna try out Split Arrow to spice it up instead of IS/TS/LA/RoA, who knows, it might be good :) Shame that GGG basically gutted most of this build.

Now that we know the finalized gem numbers for Barrage support etc. I did a preliminary calc using real numbers for power siphon based on the sample POB from the guide. To keep things simple the items were carried over from 3.8.

Barrage had around ~8mil shaper DPS compared to Power Siphon's 8.3mil. However this doesn't factor in the DPS from culling strike, which will vary depending on your overall DPS. The higher your DPS, the greater the increase in flat DPS that culling strike provides. My guess is it'll be ~600k-1mil shaper DPS for most setups on a Shaper-like boss. If we go with the more conservative estimate of 700k dps from culling strike, which puts Power Siphon at ~9mil shaper compared to Barrage's 8mil. This calculation assumes you have Dying Sun +3 proj as well as a +2 Power Siphon helm enchant. And just as expected, replacing Dying Sun w/ Atziri's Promise with small changes to the tree to get rid of the unnecessary flask effect resulted in ~9mil shaper DPS, or 9.7mil factoring in Culling strike, which means Dying Sun is not the ideal single target dps flask for Power Siphon users.

If we take away the helm enchant and replace Dying Sun w/ Atziri's Promise to see how the DPS compares without these items, Barrage drops from 8mil to 5mil, a 37% decrease in total DPS. For Power Siphon on the other hand, DPS drops from 9mil to 8.1mil, only a 10% decrease in total DPS.
I think this is a very important point and pretty much makes Power Siphon objectively better than Barrage for wanders in every way possible, at least from a temp league perspective. The gearing progression will be much smoother, because you don't need those two expensive items for the build to handle high end bosses. Even with those two items included to balance the scales in favor of Barrage, Power Siphon still comes out on top with ~10% more DPS.

The 20% wand base damage buff amounts to virtually nothing, because wands have low base damage to begin with and this doesn't take into account that half our damage is flat ele. Disregard everything I said about that buff earlier. The actual increase to DPS is pretty much not worth mentioning.

I removed 2 mods from the wand, glove, amulet, and rings. Added in the ~14% loss of DPS from Point Blank nerf, and the DPS dropped to ~5.5mil. This is a very conservative estimate because I didn't account for potential damage rolls you can hit while alt-regalling, which would probably raise the DPS closer to ~6.5mil. Taking into account the new support gems, you get only a modest increase up to around 7.2mil.

So the nerf effectively lowered single target from 8mil to 7.2mil, a ~10% nerf. I haven't included the new currency that adds quality to jewelry as well as OP mods like tailwind on crit from the new exalted orbs. It's very likely that there will be a slight overall increase in DPS in 3.9. B/c multimodding can't carry us entirely anymore, there will be more fluctuations between setups and newer players will likely experience a lower damage ceiling. I'll try to simplify this as much as possible by including trade links for 2-3 mod items worth multimodding.

Since +2 Power Siphon enchant isn't that important, a KB explosion enchant might be more useful... or even a frenzy charge attack speed/power siphon attack speed/%damage enchant for those with a smaller budget.

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oMySunshine wrote:

Spoiler

Yeah the new Awakened gems only go up to level 5. With bow builds being really popular this Metamorph league, the gems relevant to our build (GMP, added cold,..) will go up in price as well so I'm not holding my breath for those.

I'm not the kind of player who runs away at the first glance of nerfs but I think I will league start with another build first and then come back to this once I got everything figured out. Chaos DOT build is looking juicy as always.

Gonna try out Split Arrow to spice it up instead of IS/TS/LA/RoA, who knows, it might be good :) Shame that GGG basically gutted most of this build.

Nice; good luck with that :) Yeah take a break from this build lol you've played it enough I think. Though I don't think the nerfs will be as bad as I initially thought, I'm still uncomfortable with all these changes. I wish multimod cost had been reduced somewhat. It's likely exalts will be cheaper this league though so we'll see. Also 2 ex is saved from the loss of 2 wand mastercrafts fwiw

I've been wanting to run a wander for a while, and when I saw the barrage support teased a few weeks back I knew power siphon would be decent with it. What are your thoughts on your "phys wander" vs. something like a poison wander?

For reference, I've never played a wander but I read through your entire posts 2-4 and it seems doable for a newbie to the archetype. Aiming for 40 achieves for my second league in a row, and certainly pushing endgame.

If you have any thoughts on any changes for 3.9 beyond the multimod crafting and swapping to power siphon, I'd be thrilled to hear it while we prep for league start!

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Avocadoe wrote:

I've been wanting to run a wander for a while, and when I saw the barrage support teased a few weeks back I knew power siphon would be decent with it. What are your thoughts on your "phys wander" vs. something like a poison wander?

For reference, I've never played a wander but I read through your entire posts 2-4 and it seems doable for a newbie to the archetype. Aiming for 40 achieves for my second league in a row, and certainly pushing endgame.

If you have any thoughts on any changes for 3.9 beyond the multimod crafting and swapping to power siphon, I'd be thrilled to hear it while we prep for league start!

I'm glad someone decided to finally make a poison wander guide. I think it fills an important niche for wander setups mainly b/c of its low barrier of entry.

If you have a limited budget, I think the poison wander will be better for single target. Phys conversion is more costly and requires more currency for it to feel good, probably around ~15-20 ex in 3.9, but the damage ceiling is much higher. A poison wander will need ~6 seconds to ramp up to maximum DPS and even then the DPS will probably be slightly less than half that of a phys wander's. Of course this is understandable given the disparity in build cost, but even if you get better gear and invest a lot more currency, the damage ceiling will still be much lower. In the endgame setup for phys conversion, your goal is to kill all bosses very quickly, whereas for Poison Wander you'll likely have to take more punishment due to longer fights.

This is quite subjective, but I think the most enjoyable aspect of wanding is experiencing those herald of ice crit shatters while instantly clearing the screen. Not having that as a poison wander would really detract from the feel of a wander build, at least for me.

I think with the change to multimodding, my guide has become 50% outdated, at least for the higher end ~25-30 ex setup. Over the past few months, I gradually restructured the entire guide to rely primarily on multimodded gear as the final upgrade. Now that GGG destroyed multimodding, I'll have to theorycraft a work-around which will take some time. One likely outcome is that gearing up could be more RNG dependent in 3.9; there will be more RNG involved in crafting and it's possible buying items will once again be preferred over self-crafting. I'll try to minimize the RNG involved by posting trade links later on. With Watcher's Eye/Dying Sun possibly becoming rarer/higher in demand, the build cost may go up as well. There's also a chance that I completely restructure the build to pure ele instead if it's more optimal, but I'll figure that out within the next few days. There's still so many unknowns atm such as what the mod pools are for those 4 new exalted orbs, how rare Shaper/Uber elder items will be, how difficult the new atlas bosses are, what ridiculously broken items those new bosses drop etc. I don't think I can really update my guide until more info gets revealed.

In the meantime, I can say that in 3.9 the build will have a smoother progression curve early on because Power Siphon isn't as reliant on Dying Sun/helm enchant, so it'll be easier to hit higher DPS levels without as much investment. It's mostly with the higher end setups that I'm currently uncertain about. It's also possible that a Poet's Pen w/ ele pen corruption will beat out rare wands. The rings might be replaced with Circle of Fears or something like Mark of the Elder, etc.

I don't recommend starting this league as a phys wander mainly b/c I'll probably overhaul the entire setup within the next few days/week(s), and I can't fully guarantee the build will stay as phys conversion once I'm finished. Plus with new details about mods/uniques being revealed in the upcoming days it could also really affect the entire setup. If you're eager to play a wander I suggest starting out as a poison wander. If you're happy with it and can do all content then stick with it. If you want more damage later in league and have the budget to do so, you could could consider switching to phys conversion.

Good luck :)

Edit: My initial observations were incorrect; it's very likely that the build will actually be cheaper to reach endgame levels of DPS, probably <8 exalts. The nerfs applied mainly to the damage ceiling of more expensive 25+ ex setups, but this is probably going to change once we learn more about the new mods/items.

Hey guys here's a template for this league. Surprisingly, I think the build is even cheaper/stronger now than it was in 3.8, at least for the more budget version using Poet's Pen.

Current single target setup sits at ~4.4mil shaper DPS, 4.9mil with Vaal Haste. This factors in Culling Strike and Barrage Support. Life pool will be around 5k, but with TOH + Loreweave + Fortify etc as well as 78% attack avoidance the effective ehp will be higher for sure.

Most of the items are cheap non-meta uniques, the only expensive one being a Loreweave and possibly TOH. The rares Ive left most craft slots open to give a conservative DPS estimate.

No Dying Sun, no helm enchant and no Watcher's Eye. TOH can be substituted with Atziri's Promise for even more DPS although you'll lose the defensive buff. I think this setup is affordable within 1 week of league and will be pretty cheap. Judging from the numbers it should be sufficient to do Uber Elder/guardians, but not sure about the new atlas bosses yet, we'll have to see.

https://pastebin.com/2csTBUit

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Enahkra wrote:

Barrage had around ~8mil shaper DPS compared to Power Siphon's 8.3mil.

Did you do those calculations with a level 20 power siphon or 21? It's important to remember that power siphon gains an additional projectile from level 21 gem.

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z4ktan wrote:

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Enahkra wrote:

Barrage had around ~8mil shaper DPS compared to Power Siphon's 8.3mil.

Did you do those calculations with a level 20 power siphon or 21? It's important to remember that power siphon gains an additional projectile from level 21 gem.

Yeah I did all calculations with 21/20 Power Siphon. I think the reason the difference is so small is b/c Dying Sun +3 proj and helm enchants were factored in which skewed the damage in favor of Barrage. Or the other explanation is that I did the calculations wrong lol.