On Balance Feedback and Charge Changes

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jimdawg57 wrote:

My problem with power charge change: attack builds only get 30% crit from the charges. A power charge is a minimum of 2 nodes that average to 15% crit per node. Every other crit cluster on the tree averages to at least 20% crit per node, includes some amount of crit multi, and doesn't require the work to keep charges up. On no attack build would I take a power charge for 15% average crit per node over a standard damage node

My problem with frenzy charges: spell casters only get 4% cast speed per frenzy charge. A frenzy charge is a minimum of 2 points that average to 2% cast speed per node. Normal cast speed nodes are 3% or higher, so I would never use points on frenzy charges over standard cast speed nodes or other damage nodes. If frenzy charges still had more damage to spells, I would find them a worthwhile choice still. For 4% cast speed they are hardly worth the trouble to keep up, even for the 3 you get with no investment

so instead of blindly stacking charges on both build variants, you are forced to explore other alternatives.

where exactly is the problem ?

I'm fine with the changes, it doesn't affect my flame totem build.

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moush wrote:

I'm fine with the changes, it doesn't affect my flame totem build.

People tend to care more when it affects them. This is the wrong mindset because it lulls GGG into the idea that their balance changes are meaningful and welcomed.

None of the changes in this manifesto have as much a crippling effect as the 2.6 aoe nerfs for dedicated aoe builds and very few were as outraged by that. I wonder if it would have been different if those projectile players started to give a crap about aoe users.

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grepman wrote:

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jimdawg57 wrote:

My problem with power charge change: attack builds only get 30% crit from the charges. A power charge is a minimum of 2 nodes that average to 15% crit per node. Every other crit cluster on the tree averages to at least 20% crit per node, includes some amount of crit multi, and doesn't require the work to keep charges up. On no attack build would I take a power charge for 15% average crit per node over a standard damage node

My problem with frenzy charges: spell casters only get 4% cast speed per frenzy charge. A frenzy charge is a minimum of 2 points that average to 2% cast speed per node. Normal cast speed nodes are 3% or higher, so I would never use points on frenzy charges over standard cast speed nodes or other damage nodes. If frenzy charges still had more damage to spells, I would find them a worthwhile choice still. For 4% cast speed they are hardly worth the trouble to keep up, even for the 3 you get with no investment

so instead of blindly stacking charges on both build variants, you are forced to explore other alternatives.

where exactly is the problem ?

Isn't the problem obvious? It pigeonholes your build and reduces your options.
This goes against the idea of what PoE is about.

unfortuneately i think ailments will suffer the same fate as curses vs bosses.

you can't have them be full power against bosses, or they're essentially mandatory to use and are too powerful. but with such little effectiveness vs bosses it isn't even worth it to try.
but the biggest issue is, majority of builds only need that extra power against bosses. you don't need to freeze/chill/shock/curse trash mobs. we obliterate hundreds of mobs a minute. they are nothing.


i think everything needs to be reevaluated vs bosses. their immunities, their curse effectiveness, and of course ailments all being based on % of hp.
while you can still use curses vs boss (to a very low degree, mind you) with these changes you'll basically NEVER get chill/freeze/shock against bosses.

the flat duration seems okay, but again it being based on damage of % max hp is bullshit. this keeps reinforcing the idea that crit is the only way to go for ailments. in 2.6 its the same way including with poison/bleed because their damage, just as ailment effectiveness is all based on hit damage. thus to get the best result you need to maximize hit damage, which crit is an easy way to do.

with these changes its no different for chill/freeze/shock. you'll REQUIRE critical strikes (which are constantly being nerfed all over the fucking place right now) to hit the damage threshold to get a chill/shock on the boss. not only that, but crits are an automatic application of ailments.

I feel like I need to put this here since it's an unpopular opinion, instead of letting it go down the drain of feces on Reddit.

But I want to urge you not to back down on the charges changes.
I think they are good and help the game and you. To be honest you were not especially good at balancing the game on a higher level. With double dipping essentially all the builds, with a handful of exceptions, had to go either towards an ignite focus or a poison focus to annihilate all the content.
Play a cold build? Convert to fire and ignite. Physical or chaos? Convert to poison. Lightning? Voltaxic.
It's a fake diversity as much as obfuscating information is adding fake difficulty which is finally addressed with the tutorial section and I am thankful this long overdue addition is finally being implemented.

The charge changes add variety more than leaving them be. Charges are less mandatory and you need to work around restrictions. And restrictions don't only restrict the options you have, but make the ones you do have more interesting if they offer enough variety and restricted options are more easy to balance since you don't have to worry about outside of the specific targeted class so to speak.

More importantly people don't know what they want exactly. Of course they want to play their favorite build over and over and over and over again, but that's not what PoE is about, is it? It's about trying out new builds, make new things work and not slightly change a minor thing, still only use ignites or poison, still use the same abundance of charges because they are easy to get and maintain.

The changes don't kill build diversity, they build it. You have the data, you tell me how diverse the top content clearing builds actually are.

Again, please don't back down just because people who don't understand anything about the big picture cry out loud if you nerf their favorite one and only build.

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jimdawg57 wrote:

[...]spell casters only get 4% cast speed per frenzy charge[...]

Good thing they removed Shield Charge and Whirling Blades, so 500% attack speed are no longer desireable.

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Nephalim wrote:

People tend to care more when it affects them.

True, and the majority of people complaining about the changes are only doing so because it affects a build they play. If they thought about the changes objectively and how they improve the game's balance, they would be more sensible.

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grepman wrote:

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jimdawg57 wrote:

My problem with power charge change: attack builds only get 30% crit from the charges. A power charge is a minimum of 2 nodes that average to 15% crit per node. Every other crit cluster on the tree averages to at least 20% crit per node, includes some amount of crit multi, and doesn't require the work to keep charges up. On no attack build would I take a power charge for 15% average crit per node over a standard damage node

My problem with frenzy charges: spell casters only get 4% cast speed per frenzy charge. A frenzy charge is a minimum of 2 points that average to 2% cast speed per node. Normal cast speed nodes are 3% or higher, so I would never use points on frenzy charges over standard cast speed nodes or other damage nodes. If frenzy charges still had more damage to spells, I would find them a worthwhile choice still. For 4% cast speed they are hardly worth the trouble to keep up, even for the 3 you get with no investment

so instead of blindly stacking charges on both build variants, you are forced to explore other alternatives.

where exactly is the problem ?

Did you even read what you quoted, or what you wrote?

This change MAKES you blindly stack charges. It makes you BLINDLY stack power charges on EVERY caster and nobody else. It makes you BLINDLY stack frenzy charges on EVERY attacker and nobody else.

By supporting this change you support BLINDLY STACKING CHARGES and nullifying the ability to EXPLORE OTHER ALTERNATIVES because the only builds that can use these charges at all are a narrow sub-set of predefined builds that HAVE to use them. It's paint-by-numbers character creation, which is the opposite of what PoE is about. And you're literally arguing against your own end goal in supporting it.

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moush wrote:

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Nephalim wrote:

People tend to care more when it affects them.

True, and the majority of people complaining about the changes are only doing so because it affects a build they play. If they thought about the changes objectively and how they improve the game's balance, they would be more sensible.

This is ironic, since most of the people who are actively complaining are not affected in the slightest by these changes. They are BAD FOR THE GAME'S BALANCE AS A WHOLE. And yet some people(you) defend them, because they buff your pet build.

THIS RUINS BUILD DIVERSITY WHICH IS BAD FOR LONG TERM BALANCE.