Changes to the Labyrinth

GGG why you cant make labs half shorter? Or traps and Izaro damage lower?

frogemoth, TyranitarX and rocketnob thank you for voicing your opinion on the labyrinth that it could be improved further in future releases. I've added your names to players voicing similar opinions to the list now at 900 names long. That includes 111 or 112 names from just this thread alone! As the list grows longer our voice grows stronger. Over 330 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 890 posters in support

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frogemoth wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

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fiw7 wrote:

I would love for GGG to make ascendancy-points available in some other manner. It almost doesn't matter in what way. "Clear this map of monsters 20 times? Perfect... Anything to avoid the labyrinth"

As it is now, we have to run labyrinth 4 times to get the points, and if you're not very fond of the lab, you end up dreading the levelling. And the ascendancy-points are just too valuable to not do it. They are, quite literally, game changers.

Personally I hate the lab. Not only because it is horrendously coded (lag during ground-fire), but also because of the extreme waste of time, when the game bugs/hangs and kicks you from the lab. I've lost count of the amount of times I have been disconnected during lab-runs.
And I only run them 4 times per character. Just today I have tried running labyrinth 3 times, without being able to complete it. Not dying, but just getting the random dc's/app-hangs/failed to join instance.

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Palin81 wrote:

I sincerely wish they could award us the Ascendency points after we fight against every last boss in stories.

When you defeat the bosses,you ascend.That´s smooth and natural.
Instead we beat 4 times of weird-ass Mechanical King with all the traps and corridors out of nowhere to get these essential points.
Not sophisticated,nor logical.

fiw7 and Palin81 thank you both for voicing your opinions on the disliked labyrinth. I've added your names to the list of players posting similar opinions now at 896 names long. As the list grows longer our voice grows stronger. Over 330 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 890 posters in support There's been something like 108 or 109 names added just from this thread alone. That's about two new names added per page of this thread. That along with the overall length of the list would seem to indicate that the many people dislike this content and think it should be fixed.

Note that in the list people added from this thread have a "#" after their name. If I see a similar post in the Feedback and Suggestions forum then the "#" will be replaced.

You can add me to your list. I am only doing the lab for the prophecies once I have a couple of them waiting for completion.

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TyranitarX wrote:

Lab can remain with its treasures/rewards and what not. What I don't like is the fact that ascendancies are gated by the lab. As a player who joined in 2013, the core of Path of Exile has always been building your character through the expansive passive tree and unique items. It's not designed for Touhou-like gameplay (exaggerating here, traps aren't that hard). Just as an example, Path of Exile is not controlled by WASD movement but right clicking on the mouse, yet movement in League of Legends feels miles better than PoE (really wish they'd show where you're clicking). This, in tandem with lag, hardware issues, etc., make movement incredibly imprecise. Moreover, for some of the longer trap runs in merc/uber, you can't zoom out far enough to look ahead and plan, so often times you just gotta pop your flasks and hope you'll make it. If you enjoy the lab, go ahead and do it, but please set free the ascendancies.

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rocketnob wrote:

I've played PoE on and off since 2012. It's still the best ARPG on the market IMO, but boy does the Labyrinth detract from the experience - the Mario/Frogger gamestyle just isn't something I'd choose to play by choice and it doesn't feel to fit comfortably within the game. The Ascendancy points are essential for a decently developed build however which effectively makes the Lab mandatory, as avoiding it would leave you with a much weaker character.

From the number of threads it seems that Lab is one of the biggest bugbears for a lot of PoE players, but I've not spotted ANY responses from GGG to these threads to explain their thoughts on this. Have I just missed something from them during one of my breaks from the game?

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TreeOfDead wrote:

GGG why you cant make labs half shorter? Or traps and Izaro damage lower?

Izaro is one of the more interesting bosses in the game. I like fighting him quite a bit; he's the shining exception to how boring and irritating the rest of the lab is.

Plus, Izaro's really heavy hitting attacks are all well telegraphed, so you have time to react. He's one of those bosses that makes you play with skill, which is what ARPGs are all about.

The chief issue with Izaro is that you end up fighting him, in his final incarnation, in a very small space. "Bullet hell in a small space" seems to be GGG's go-to way of making bosses challenging these days, which probably gives many older gamers "Galaga" or "Asteroids" flashbacks and is probably at least part of why Act 4 received a mixed response from players.

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

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TreeOfDead wrote:

GGG why you cant make labs half shorter? Or traps and Izaro damage lower?

Izaro is one of the more interesting bosses in the game. I like fighting him quite a bit; he's the shining exception to how boring and irritating the rest of the lab is.

Plus, Izaro's really heavy hitting attacks are all well telegraphed, so you have time to react. He's one of those bosses that makes you play with skill, which is what ARPGs are all about.

The chief issue with Izaro is that you end up fighting him, in his final incarnation, in a very small space. "Bullet hell in a small space" seems to be GGG's go-to way of making bosses challenging these days, which probably gives many older gamers "Galaga" or "Asteroids" flashbacks and is probably at least part of why Act 4 received a mixed response from players.

Couldn't agree more, all this fight the boss on the head of a stamp is just wank...

My puters a potato which doesn't help.

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I can only advise you to play the builds, who can easily trivializes the Lab Content.

I've now started factoring lab carries into the cost of my build / char. Otherwise I simply couldn't get ascendancy points playing builds that are fun to me. If they want you to reroll a character rather than mass-regret orb farm, it really doesn't make sense; considering the changes many builds would require just to do the lab.

How about just removing the traps and make lab like a normal run or as GGG would put it - "more in line with maps"

Can you imagine if the forsaken master's gave you some kind of epic quest kind for your ascendancy classes, and just kept the labyrinth for enchants/phat money loots?

From an RP standpoint, this makes more sense:

Perhaps Vorici can test the new assassin in some kind of labyrinth type of set up to test his mobility skills if he wants to become a tricktster. Or if he wants to become an assassin, he has to navigate through mobs using smoke clouds/line of set in order to get to the target he must assassinate without drawing aggro(lol solid snakuuu), or a saboteur that has 30 seconds to lay down mines/traps and then mobs will spawn and attack him, except you're not allowed to do anything but detonate your mines/traps.

Perhaps Vagan wants Mr. Duelist to 1v1 a large boss with tons of health to become a slayer, or survive as long as he can with blocks as a gladiator, or protect some NPCs from attacks as a champion.

You can get really creative with these, and obviously you can scale the difficulty of these according to how many ascendancy points you have.

I think the labyrinth is an excellent way of an alternative grind to making income. Lab enchants should stay here. Less rooms, but I don't mind if the trap puzzles become more difficult. It's a non-dps challenge. It's not something I view should be mandatory, but I do believe it's necessarily to include for all the people that want to do something different than burn down bosses in <5seconds(which you can still do here, but it's not even on the same level).

No staff responses here. Hrmm.

So you want to make the game harder, less faceroll again, less spam movement skills. I get it.

Lab is just a lame way to do it.

Maybe I'll go play Minecraft Parkour while i wait for 3.0.

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Makivante wrote:

No staff responses here. Hrmm.

So you want to make the game harder, less faceroll again, less spam movement skills. I get it.

Lab is just a lame way to do it.

Maybe I'll go play Minecraft Parkour while i wait for 3.0.

Makivante, thank you for voicing your opinion on the lame labyrinth. I've added your name to the list of of players posting a similar opinion in the forum now at 906 names long. That includes 112 or 113 names from just this thread alone! As the list grows longer our voice grows stronger. Over 330 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 890 posters in support

As Jonkimble and a number of others have pointed out, so-called "ascendancy" provides a homogenous experience for all character types. The resulting dissociation between character change and development and how that occurs is likely to be jarring for a lot of RPG players.

This makes the paper-thin justification for Izaro's use of a labyrinth to find an heir (dexterity as a test of who is likely to be a good emporer, really?) come across as a "deux ex machina" act by devs who want to provide a lore-based justification for pushing somebody's pet project on players. I know that many people worked very hard on labyrinth and I'm sorry if this offends. But, that's how it looks and feels.

If POE's version of prestige classes were done in a more RPG-like-way, the following objectives could be reached:

1. The change in the character would make more logical sense, which helps to get players to be more invested in their characters.
2. The process could be used to help players become better at using skills that will be key to playing their prestige class well. Many are likely to appreciate this.
3. The original classes could be presented as having a default progression, along with forking paths for different specializations. This means the original character classes are not necessarily rendered obsolete, which they currently are.
4. The current sad-sack state of Ascendant could be improved in ways that are neither underpowered nor overpowered.
5. Problems with netcode wouldn't cancel out player progress in the way lab currently does, leading to less rage-quits by players.
6. Replay value for the game as a whole would way up. Probably way, way up for many players.

Here's one example of how a more RPG-like way of putting prestige classes in POE could work, based on two out of the three current Ranger ascendancies.

Default progression as a Ranger could be toward Deadeye, meaning you work with Tora to hone your skills an archer / hunter to the point where you earn the title "Deadeye" appended to your identity as a Ranger. One of Tora's signature missions could be to for a player to shoot the arrows that Tora shoots at the player. If Tora hits the player or the player hits Tora, then the player fails on that mission. This would help players practice being a good Deadeye in a (probably) non-lethal way and fully justify making some measure of progress toward being earning the "Deadeye" title.

To become a Pathfinder, players would select the appropriate dialogue choice with Tora and be referred to a retired Ranger (backstory required!) who specializes in herbs and botanical magicks, and who happens to need some help acquiring some rare ingredients. She'll provide the player's character with a special infusion to add to her potions that allows her to fight specialized monsters that cause auto-bleed with most attacks, to cross ground that poisons players, etc. Potions use would need to be carefully timed for these missions, which helps players learn that skill early in their travels as a Pathfinder. After each mission or set of missions is complete, the Pathfinder mentor / teacher can then teach the player character something useful, as payment for services rendered.

Also, perhaps certain ascendant powers could be turned on or off at player discretion. For example, extra projectiles could be switched on or off by a player (kind of like switching an aura on or off), leading to the ability by players to go for single target if that would make sense for their current mission (ie: Vorici).