What is the MINIMUM PvP needs? (ignore balance)

Cross league PvP wouldn't be an issue, people will realize that in time. Gear rarely decided matches in the past and with today's more accessible gearing, way better uniques plus exploits, there is no excuse. Hell I can go on Poe.trades and often times find better available gear on the temp leagues then standard...better shit then I even use now.

It's true GGG shouldn't of left legacy gear in the game though. Still I sold my legacy Kaom's maybe 2 years ago now, never have I been in a match since where I thought it would of saved me vs a new one or a completely different chest entirely as an example. Legacy gear allows more build leniency especially on the tree though and that can't be denied.

The two most powerful items that would matter the most in cross-league play both happen to be flasks.

Legacy Vinktar and Legacy Rumi's are just insane compared to the versions that drop in league currently. Compare what those 2 items bring to the table (especially with pathfinder ascendancy/alchemist node) versus 500 more life a legacy kaoms brings, and it's no contest.

Not sure what to do about that except disable unique flasks in cross-league pvp or something

Ign: Libritannia / STD / HLD

I'll try and keep this short and simple.

Progression - As a PoE veteran, PvE no longer offers me a sense of progression, I have multiple level 100's, and an adequate amount of wealth, Pvp is my last frontier, however PvP is unprofitable, and offers nothing in returns for the amount time and currency invested, as mentioned by others, "some" kind of rewards would entice players to "Grind" and maintain Pvp retention and boost participation, be it currency or something superficial such as tittles, MTX's, decorations etc, The tiny Leo reputation reward is a disgrace...

Balance & Meta - Balance is talked throughout said thread, however there's a distinctive lack of, "how to balance" So here goes.
Method
1. Flat Reduce elemental penetration by flat 50%
2. Remove Elemental status Immunity & Curse Immunity, From 100% Immunity > 60-80% flat reduction, While active.
3. AoE & AoE overlap. Reduce every spell's AoE by 35%, if not More.

Explanation
1. Power creep, This comes from experience, as many of you may know, often when hosting HLD 3vs3 friendly games, when, and if teams becomes too inbalanced, I often take out my fire penetration gem, for everybody and my enjoyment, as its for fun and the victor does not matter, resulting in a more "manageable" damage margin, and allows counter play. [We must go Deeper] -Further in depth analysis, penetration scales from 4% MORE damage to 1.5% MORE damage, The more you pen get the less damage effectiveness, however this scaling is far too far apart, Lets say, a lvl 21 fire pen is 38% fire penetration in one gem slot, (Rough math here) 3.5-38% = 133% MORE damage, on a single gem, when compared lvl 21 conc's mere 61%, it's power is incomprehensible, not to mention, there is no possible way to prevent this, apart from element max res Aura / elemental flask & Mana gain MoM/ fortify gimmicks. Every players has 75% resistance, its a simple and easy gear check, whereby every players must abide by. More simply put, max % resistance would be scrapped, and replaced by an entropy system, similar to how Armour works, (arbitrary numbers) Make 135% flat resistances 65% elemental resistances, and 200% flat resistances 75-85% resistances. check other games such as league of legend's armor / Magic resistance's calculations.

Route 2 Would be, providing players with better tools for elemental damage reduction, without huge long laboring mechanism overhauls of the entire game, a simply change from endurance charge 4% flat elemental resistances to 4% reduced elemental damage taken, would be simply sufficient, aka same treatment as frenzy charge's More damage update. (There's a reason, why every single "successful" pvp player/ huge damage is from elemental damage base)

2. Elemental status & Curse immunity hinders build diversity, not much to explain, Elemental immunity, is among one of the main reasons why "Pathfinders" are such prominent Ascendancy choices.

3. This a tricky one to convey, I'm a strong advocate of single target Attacks / skills "should" deal higher damage than huge area of effect skills, evidently heavy strike does less damage than earthquake / ice crash due to support gem balance is far beyond me... however the huge 2 screen area of effect skills does not allow counter play / clusters the entire arena, it'll fix the problems of the arena "Feeling" as if, there's too many walls or small. Line of sight is a very important part of any PVP games, huge AoE effects negates it greatly, since now that we have lockstep, side stepping a storm call or Ea explosion should be regarded as counter play and be actually possible, while the attacker requires a reason degree of aim. It'll give a greater/ better amount of "fun" overall.

due to point 2, I don't actually believe AoE overlap will ba a problem, once point 2 is applied. However if point 2 is omitted, There are few options.
1. add entropy to each AoE hit.
2. add flat reduction similar to LMP / GMP to each projectile/ spell casted (included +1arrow / dying sun/ snakepit / sire of shards.
3. (I don't support) Remove AoE overlap, & readjust, T value changes similar to Blade vortex, However I don't believe this will actually solve the core of the problem, especially once the Tvalue of 70% LESS damage is removed, 1 Ea arrow will be enough to kill you. Also Thematically, it makes no sense, if Aoe overlap is removed, is there a purpose to use GMP/LMP / increased area of effect at all? It's left in the game for a reason.



(I ran out of steam/ toooo~~ tired to type anymore)

Ironically, GGG stated that PoE's not built for PvP, however from the days of Diablo 2, it's PvP was broken, gear dependent and extremely fun! but if all else fails, I'd like to draw up some other PvP game modes,

There are such things as PVPM's, Player VS Player monsters, Where I hope GGG may one day implement (probably not in my life time), 6 vs 6 with 1 boss on each side, multiple victory conditions, kill all enemy, deplete enemy tokens(domination), or defeat enemy boss. Read "http://vindictus.gamepedia.com/Monster_Brawl" for better explanation.

Or Lineage's 2's Pvp Game modes, Lock 2 team of players into an different instance, spawn more and more powerful monsters in each instance, the victor is the one who survives he longest.



A few mistakes, I would like to point out,

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Rupenus wrote:

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If GGG is going to half-ass balance like this then they should eliminate the requirement to add t values or scaling to individual skills. Remove all t values and individual scaling. Increase the pvp damage reduction globally. Then increase the damage reduction for secondary damage and dots by a greater amount.

totally agree

This Sounds like a good idea at first, but if you're a little more adept with Tvalues & pvp scaling, this will be really really bad news bears for everyone here, as individually the word "EA" has pop'ed up much across this topic, the "Ea" tvalue, is so great, it's actually a 70% damage reduction. As a prominent Ea player myself, inorder to bypass said reduction, we simply scale Attack speed, instead, For example.

Jewels Fire Area damage 16%, Bow Attack speed 8%

16/100*30 = 4.8% fire Damage Vs 8% Bow attack speed. Multiply said equation on a 10 Arrows,

48% fire damage vs 80% Bow Attack speed, I needn't to explain, the value of these mods.

If every other spell / attack had these Tvalues, its a astronomical buff to EA.

Edit:1
Oh... GG, Didn't read "(ignore balance)" part, TIFU.

no offence lib but that was officially the most useless post of 2017

mulla calling someone a pussy would probably have been more helpful

All this text about balance and not a single word about secondary damages and trigger gem, not expected at all ^^

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lapiz wrote:

no offence lib but that was officially the most useless post of 2017

mulla calling someone a pussy would probably have been more helpful

Mulla calling someone pussy, is always helpful.

"

IceDeal wrote:

All this text about balance and not a single word about secondary damages and trigger gem, not expected at all ^^

I'm guessing, you can't really read inbetween the lines, as in, What damage type are secondary damage and trigger gems? That's right, Elemental and spells.

Most other problems has already been highlighted, there's no need for double post.

Also, is this your least offensive comment to me yet? Disappointing, Relowe is dethroning you. Or are you slowly falling for me?

Disregarding balance PvP needs better pre made characters, something that's actually realistic/useful in the current meta, HLD premades would be nice as well maybe lvl 89 and similar to the LLD premades where they can only be used to PvP.

The Queuing system needs to be overhauled. You should be able to see how many people are currently in the queue and you should be able to subscribe to the PvP queue and get chat notices when someone enters. This would greatly reduce the amount of time spent sitting around waiting for a match.

PvP ladder needs to be worked on there's some bugs in there where people's ratings aren't decaying over time. Not having a serious ladder makes it hard to take PvP seriously.

If there are long que times EU and US players should be matched together or just any players whose ping wouldn't be too terrible when matched. Playing with some lag is better than not playing at all.

Sarn Arena should have multiple instances and Password instances as well so people can go in and mess around or just organize fun FFA fights, escape griefers ect. EU and US should be able to enter each other's instances without logging off and switching servers.

More PvP events would be a huge help as well but I feel this is something that might be best left to the community to manage.

Leo level 8 should give possibility to people to create their own arena in their hideout...

would love to see arena created by pvp players.

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1Tokimeki2003 wrote:

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lapiz wrote:

no offence lib but that was officially the most useless post of 2017

mulla calling someone a pussy would probably have been more helpful

Mulla calling someone pussy, is always helpful.

"

IceDeal wrote:

All this text about balance and not a single word about secondary damages and trigger gem, not expected at all ^^

I'm guessing, you can't really read inbetween the lines, as in, What damage type are secondary damage and trigger gems? That's right, Elemental and spells.

Most other problems has already been highlighted, there's no need for double post.

Also, is this your least offensive comment to me yet? Disappointing, Relowe is dethroning you. Or are you slowly falling for me?

I think if he wanted to insult you, he could imply that the only reason you use EA is because you're not actually good the game from a skill-based perspective and that you use the skill as a crutch. Or that you probably don't know as much as you say you do, and use the Arctic Armor + aura buffs idea of yours as possible evidence. If he wanted to be insulting, he'd say that kind of stuff. But he didn't, he just pointed out that you missed a couple of points, that's all :) IceDeal isn't mean, he is just a friendly neighborhood PVPer/part-time manager at Chili's, and is related to the man who is responsible for almost inventing the bidet.

Should also mention that Bear Trap has secondary damage and it's not elemental or spell damage, and doesn't benefit from modifiers to either of those. Valve pls nerf secondary damage

Lib, I can't agree with most of your suggestions.

Immunities could be indeed improved, but maybe not with an overall cap, but nerfing their sources, mostly thinking about Pathfinder itself. There is already a basic difference at being life or ES based, where life based have a naturally higher shock, freeze, and stun resistance, so ES directly has to build against them, so a global cap would cause a big difference between those. Building into full immunity to those should be still possible, but the opportunity cost should be looked at.

Reducing penetration values is many of the possible changes that would slow down the oneshot meta, but it's not the change we need, because the problem is rather the build diversity indifference, than the pace of the games. Nerfing penetration would affect inferior skills and builds as much as the top tier ones, leaving the overpowered builds still overpowered compared to the rest.

AoE overlap should be completely removed. Until it's in the game, whereever it works, it is the only viable way of building the given skill, and would cause the need to balance things around the fact that it works on those skills. Besides their overall overpowered state, the problem is that there are only a few options to scale AoE overlap, and not equally available to every build.
Through an example: GMP is easily available for everyone, for quite a cost, a gem slot and less damage, very fair. Additional arrow comes with no drawback, but the wealth required, but scales the damage by 7/5 = 40% on top of GMP. Snakepit(s) is only for spells, and costs a whole ring slot, other than that the same multiplier as +arrows. Dying sun, besides the cost of the item, has different effect on different builds: 1. Pathfinders can fit it onto the character more easily, as the less need of immunity flasks. 2. Pathfinders can keep up a longer overall duration, due to the charge generation, reduced consumption, and flat increased duration. 3. Pathfinders get an increased effect, just enough, but only exclusively available to them to make the +2 projectiles into +3. 4. In a case of your suggested nerf, Dying sun would be the most important item to counter the mentioned nerfed, making the difference between people using it and not using it even bigger. Dying sun is also the easiest way of the even fewer options to scale winter enchant, by an enourmous amount. Because of these huge numerical advantages, Dying sun becomes a musthave item, but it's cost is a separator factor among players, and also in itself asks for the class to be a Pathfinder, for the easy sustain and increased effect.
Looking at it from skill comparsion, the difference between skills using AoE overlap and skills that don't, is the biggest in the entire game, and the PvP formula does not reduce it's effect at all. In case of hitting with all projectiles, a GMP adds 400% greater damage after it's initial, not even comparable penalty. Notice I mentioned greater and not more, as the normal more multipliers in the game, do get affected by PvP formula, causing their actual multiplier to be halved, trisected, or even quartered depending on the actual damage values. If I want to compare a skill overlapping with 5 projectiles to a 1 projectile version, it means around a 800% - 1600% MORE damage multiplier. It is completely out of any "balance" this game ever had.


Besides the suggestions, let me help you clarify the misunderstandings you seem to have about T values and PvP damage formula. The T value is not in itself the factor the skill gets reduced by through the formula. The T value is a component of the PvP formula. A skill having a fixed T value is only a most of the time slight alteration / modification of the PvP formula, in the case of wallspam EA, it is actually minor. The common reduction multiplier for most build's damage is around 60-90%.

Wrapping up from the start: The PvP formula is a calculation that reduces the original damage values of skills by a significant amount. Attack / cast speed has to be the part of the formula, but altering the actual attack / cast speed of players is not an option, it has to apply to the damage as a multiplier, otherwise players would scale their DPS with attack speed, not affected by any reduction, and increasing the actual damage would be worthless. So the formula has two components, one is the damage, and the other is attack / cast speed. To make it easier, imagine it as graph, but instead of a straight line representing the different level of damages, imagine it as a curve, a line that goes less and less higher as you draw it further:

The formula has some numeric constants that apply to the damage input as multipliers, which in themselves make a curve like that, expressing to how much the damage gets reduced at certain points. On top of that we add the attack / cast TIME (THE ALMIGHTY T VALUE) as a multiplier to the formula.

Every skill going through the formula has a T value, by default their attack / cast time. Skills having a fixed T value means that the T value used in the calculation is a constant, and the damage of each of your hit is not affected by your attack / cast time at all, so you can scale your PvP DPS linearly by scaling speed. Fixed T values are usually set on skills which should do less or more damage they actually do, by giving them a T value, an attack / cast time assumption that they can hardly achieve. For example the cast time of motlen shell is 0.5, but they gave it a 1.2 T value, to increase it's damage, because on a normal build that waits for opponents to proc it will not do so that quickly.

Returning to the original example, EA: The old adjustment, the fixed 0.2 T value was designed to reduce the damage of arrows actually stacking on a player, to avoid oneshots, which had a slower attack time, so the T value affected it as a greater damage reduction.

Let's go through what happens to EA at different attack speeds.
EA with Quill Rain equipped only, and no speed multipliers, has a 3.0 attack speed, which means a 0.333 attack time, or default T value. This gets overriden by the fixed T value, which is 0.2. It means that all hits from it are calculated as if it was fired with a 0.2 attack time, so it punishes the damage due to it's greater speed.
If you stack attack speed and achieve a 5.0 attack speed, or a 0.2 attack time, it is equal to it's fixed T value, which means that the calculation is using the exact speed you are actually firing. At this point the PvP formula calculates the damage reduction AS IF IT'S A NORMAL SKILL WITH NO EXCEPTIONS, because the designed attack time is achieved.
The most surprising fact comes last, you can actually scale your attack speed so high, that the originally designed nerf becomes a buff to EA.
If you have 7.0 attack speed, your attack time, or T value is 0.143, the formula calculates as if you are firing slower, and giving you more damage than you would have without the fixed T value.

What you misunderstood is that the 70% reduction you mention, let's assume is correct, I did not calculate, it can be, is a perfectly normal reduction by the formula, most skills get similar multipliers compared to their original number, and it is not 70% in comparsion with EA without T value. Since you are having faster attack time than 0.2, if they would revert that nerf, you would actually do less damage.