What is the MINIMUM PvP needs? (ignore balance)

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Márkusz wrote:

We, the STD HLD "community" leftovers mostly find balance a much more urging problem than quality of life measures and things to attract new people. Our most dedicated members are quitting because of balance problems. We need to improve viable build diversity. There are a few broken things that could be hotfixed more easily than implementing such features you mentioned. However take these still in context of STD HLD.

And to talk a little bit against myself, I feel that this part of pvp is a minority (in population, not in dedication), people who play here are confortable with their permanent gear and wealth, enjoy using legacy items and make advantage of imbalance, and not bother temp leagues because PvP would feel suboptimal due to gearing problems (at least me). A perfect balance would be impossible to achieve, but it's not the goal, generic diversity could be improved a lot by some balance fixes, mostly just numeric tuning, and disabling items or mods.

It will be a bit hard to work together when we have different needs, and I'm sure others will have good suggestions too, but temp/perm leagues and hld/lld should be handled differently I think.

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Rupenus wrote:

the MOST important thing about pvp in poe is that there is no rewards of playing pvp. no ranks, no alt arts for beeing top 3 in seasons, no tournaments, nothing. when you go to sarn arena, it's just a waste of time, cause you have nothing in return in terms of game. you can just get fun or ego satisfaction.

we need to have alt art rewards for the top 3-5-10(you name it) for each league, also for standard as well(standard rankings will start with each lague and will be renewed after league ends)

i even can supprt the idea that in sarn arena dead players drop loot. it sounds weird maybe, but sarn arena would be full of people.

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Vhlad wrote:

QoL
- reduce size of pvp queue box (and maybe even put it in a spot that doesn't interfere with playing the game (clicking players/monsters), while blocking buff icons/visibility, etc)
- add links to breach pvp ladder (US and EU PVP ratings are missing ratings for current league, this is a pretty extreme and neglectful oversight)
- show number of players waiting in queue (very helpful for things like 3v3 CTF)
- allow us to change zone while in pvp queue (this would necessitate an anti-afk mechanism, i.e. once a match is made require checkbox to accept match, similar to 3v3v3 matching in dead island epidemic if anyone played that)
- add a pvp notice board in-game with current pvp ladder rankings and a button to press to open up the queue menu

#1: fix the crashing. Players are crashing sarn arena constantly since breach. Scorching ray is crashing, whispering ice (duration/speed stacking) is crashing, worms with southbound + many hits is crashing, reflection enchantment is crashing. When sarn arena crashes everyone to desktop (complete instance death, ladder reset) every 10-20 mins it's a total buzzkill.

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Aodui wrote:

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ProjectPT wrote:

Stay in Queue when changing instances

Totally agree, this is keeping people from just hanging out in say a 3v3 queue while they farm.
Of course the other problem is Lab and Maps make it so you are less likely to want to lose a portal / start over if you get your match.

Here are my suggestions - I think our main problems are interest and accessibility

1. Give up on segregated PVP content by league; find a way to implement cross-league PVP; the PVP community is so tiny that the only way for who is here to play is if they huddle up somewhere due to someone orchestrating an event - usually the Leo Daily. Split it back apart once the numbers support it.

2. Give people current queue info for everything, including Sarn arena, from the PVP menu so that they can know where people are waiting.

3. Let us queue up for multiple things and go into the first one that finds a match.

4. Give us rep for Arena kills, so people farming Leo go to the Arena attempting to get kills. Sure, people will just farm each other, like they do in 1v1 matches, so perhaps cap rep you can get from killing a certain player (account) a day.

5. If we really need a separate LLD Forum, just have two PVP Feedback and Discussion forums, one for LLD, one for HLD.

There is so little content in these two forums right now as it is, and it is not like we are getting any dev responses about PVP changes, so it is not a deluge of news that we need to sort and order - I'd be happy with one forum for all of it, so I can keep a single bookmark.

6. Post PVP stats when stats are given about new leagues, players killed in PVP, skills most used to kill other players, that sort of thing. In other words, pretend like it exists so people see it and get interested.

7. I am not sure how a Rated Sarn Arena would work, when sometimes for my Leo Daily 2 hours after dailies reset I enter an empty Merc Arena in standard, swap to my league character, and enter an empty Merc Arena in league; I do know it sucks trying to compete when you are just barely too high for the previous arena's level cap; if we had the people (the players) to support it, I would have the Arena be broken down every ten levels till 80 and above, cross league, and with the option of going to the higher arena instance if you so desire / see there are players if you just go up a bracket.

8. Have the Arena map have options and randomly generate every time it crashes / resets because no one is in there. Right now the options are just foliage, give us a couple more maps that are somewhat different in some way, probably one indoor with a lot of corridors like the 3v3 map that looks like the Upper Prison, and another more open outdoor one with less line of sight blocks / EA fodder than our current Arena.

9. Post the information about what skills, items, etc., have PVP reductions and what those reductions are. This will make it clear that "hey, blight has no T-Value, you'll probably not want to play life this league." Or "why should you even bother using Glacial Hammer? tootltip dps aside, we are cutting its pvp damage in half because three years ago level six players in cutthroat were getting annihilated with it"





------ of course some people lose interest in PVP fairly quickly when they see how broken certain skills (or glove enchants)(or potions) are, to the point where their defenses are absolutely useless against their opponents, or that their attacks cannot offset their opponent's regen due to their their stupidly high energy shield or clever use of aegis, which also happens to make them immortal against all of the games toughest content, as it appears no one is at the helm of game balance, likely because they are not balancing mid-league, as they need to, so every league is destined to be a new set of unbalanced skills for three months, some of which will be nerfed as soon as it is over, usually after the MTX comes out ------

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lapiz wrote:

The first 4 most important things to do I would say are creating rewards and progression (of any sort), fixing the few small remaining balance issues, fix premades and lastly perhaps the most important aspect, fix the ladder/queue. Ignoring balance is kinda silly as it is so easy to fix and it actually is a major problem. All of these issues are somewhat similar in importance and all of them sort of need to be taken care of before the pvp in poe can actually slowly become something. After fixing these we can look at the quality of life things.

I'm aware you want the absolute minimum GGG has to do to make pvp work. Well, here is a plan that will make it work.

How to fix the ladder/queue:
If I had to underline the most important issue, this would probably be it.

You need to match supply and demand so that it doesn't become a ghost town. As an example, make one only queue for hld and one for lld (all leagues, tempsc,temphc,tempsc,sc). Then the client chooses the most fitting server for both players. This would immediately increase the amount of pvp matches played tenfold.

How to fix rewards and progression: There are so many ways to do this. Alt-art rewards are an example that have been done before and I would say it worked. There is no need for fancy tournaments and such (although they were very nice). But most importantly you need to reward the masses and grant them a sense of progression. Currency seems to be the only worthwhile reward in this game so use that as a reward. Progression for an example comes through simple statistics like win/loss ratio, ladder rating etc.

How to fix balance: Form a group of objective people who know how this game works pvp-wise and then let them work the problems out outside of these forums together with GGG. This is an issue that is far more simple than it is made out to be.

How to fix premades: Once again form a group of objective people who know LLD inside out and work together with GGG.


Comments for the ideas of PT:
Apart from a few things I only saw minor quality of life improvements that wouldn't actually change anything. It is true Leo could be improved and it would have some positive effect on pvp. But in the end he is only a master. He could act as a progression "bar" like you suggested though.

Being able to queue anywhere and during instance changes is a thing that would be very welcome and would be the next step after fixing the queue itself.

It is true that HLD and LLD are different but all of the core problems are the same for both.

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Head_Less wrote:

@ProjectPT, you gonna make the same mistake they did in patch 1.3. They half naked shit around without balancing anything, making pvp broken AND making people hate it.

You can t ask for better interfaces before things like T value for skills for exemple. It is like you put a Fiat motor in a nice Ferrari. They NEED to make T value before anything else.

so :

1/ T value for skills please.
This is not really "balance" it is just preparing skills for pvp.
They nerfed cyclone because of level 28 pvp but then 2 patch later they introduce new skills without t value. SO you have old skills prepared for pvp and new skills who are not.


2/ 1vs1 area are too short and they have walls all around. It make wall spam of EA too broken. 1 vs 1 maps need to be bigger without walls around them

3/if I queue for pvp I should just have a little text on top, not a giant windows blocking half my view.

4/ bring back the old minimap in sarn arena.
Offscreeners just look at names on screen and kill you 3 screen away.

Make sarn arena minimap like the 1 vs1 minimap, other players appears 1 screens max away from you.

How many faggets would get their glass canon build nullified if they could not see the whole area?

Sarn was fun before they introduced this new minimap, now it is shit because anyone with a ranged attack can stay in corned and target names 3 screen away.

5/ get ride of those sarn arena speed shrines.

It only favorise campers with offcreen ranged skills (and minimap abusers). They just camp there until they get the speed shrines then run around and 1shot until they have to hide again.

I get it was supposed the be a fun addition, but the speed shrine make it not funny for anyone once a T1 build camp on the hill.

6/ half the es/life regen of players upon entering sarn arena like in modded maps.
1 vs 1 is for real pvp but players who want to have fun have to deal with immortal regen crap in the arena.

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Dethklok wrote:

Disregarding balance PvP needs better pre made characters, something that's actually realistic/useful in the current meta, HLD premades would be nice as well maybe lvl 89 and similar to the LLD premades where they can only be used to PvP.

The Queuing system needs to be overhauled. You should be able to see how many people are currently in the queue and you should be able to subscribe to the PvP queue and get chat notices when someone enters. This would greatly reduce the amount of time spent sitting around waiting for a match.

PvP ladder needs to be worked on there's some bugs in there where people's ratings aren't decaying over time. Not having a serious ladder makes it hard to take PvP seriously.

If there are long que times EU and US players should be matched together or just any players whose ping wouldn't be too terrible when matched. Playing with some lag is better than not playing at all.

Sarn Arena should have multiple instances and Password instances as well so people can go in and mess around or just organize fun FFA fights, escape griefers ect. EU and US should be able to enter each other's instances without logging off and switching servers.

More PvP events would be a huge help as well but I feel this is something that might be best left to the community to manage.

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Simplesim45 wrote:

For a PvP game to require any sort of player skill, the very core requires the following two things:

1. No 1-shots (or even close).

You can punish someone for bad positioning and chunk them significantly, but flat out dying instantly is a no-no. Especially with the skills we have in PoE. There needs to be a possibility for counter play.

Take Diablo 2 as the closest example. Their formula for damage was reducing it by a factor of 10. That may not be the most appropriate for Path of Exile, but it's fairly close. If all the damage we deal to each other was 1/10th of what it is now and rule #2 was in full effect, we'd actually have some real PvP fights on our end.

2. Damage needs to stick.

That means no absurd regen. Regen needs to be completely gutted to the point of becoming a long term sustain.

Flask use needs to be extremely limited as well. In a world where 1-shots and insane damage doesn't exist, for 1v1s and 3v3s, it would be perfectly fine for flasks to fully refill every new round, but have no way of filling from hits/crits/running. This severely limits instant healing and constant immunities. It forces you to utilize your flasks in moments where they're really needed and you don't have infinite sustain.




Obviously after that, you need to take care of T-values and AoE overlaps, but those 2 main rules apply to any balanced PvP game. League of Legends, Battlerite, Bloodline Champions, Dota, etc. The difference here is that we make our own champion through builds and game items. There can't be player-skill involved without those rules.

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Rupenus wrote:

the MOST important thing about pvp in poe is that there is no rewards of playing pvp. no ranks, no alt arts for beeing top 3 in seasons, no tournaments, nothing. when you go to sarn arena, it's just a waste of time, cause you have nothing in return in terms of game. you can just get fun or ego satisfaction.

we need to have alt art rewards for the top 3-5-10(you name it) for each league, also for standard as well(standard rankings will start with each lague and will be renewed after league ends)

i even can supprt the idea that in sarn arena dead players drop loot. it sounds weird maybe, but sarn arena would be full of people.

Also this is very true. Whether it be from ranking on the PvP ladder to having PvP points to grind towards alt arts...Just having a fucking incentive to do it would be amazing.