[2.6] SignalShot™ CI Full Ele Conversion TS/Barrage / Shaper & Uber Deathless / with video!

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_Saranghaeyo_ wrote:
Well don't berate me too much to joining in the fun, but hey...

First of all been playing this build for a while now to see what all the fuss is about. It's pretty damn strong even with a mid budget tbh, but I feel like if you're presenting it to the average audience, being able to reach the power level post-Skyforth acquisition versus beforehand is pretty rough if said audience isn't flipping/sniping/extreme luck etc. I play mostly temp leagues so I can sorta comment on that. You can have hundreds of ex at the end of the league, about a hundred or so if you just play the game like me and a lot of people do, or basically be poor in the gutter if you are a beginner. This build is not friendly to those who are in the third class of people.

That aside, I've seen Rup say some really weird shit in this thread, and doesn't seem quite on the same page as blasting at times. Also really hilarious moments like telling a guy with Merciless/Flaring bow that his bow was too weak and he should get a Chin Sol (ROFL). But on the real, for the subject recently discussed honestly if people are open to different perspectives I always try to consider it without being rude, or at least test it. Could things have been worded better? Absolutely but damn, reading the last page was cancer.

Back to the strength of the build, realistically once you have really refined gear the bow doesn't really fucking matter, it just needs to have some DPS, shitty 300 pDPS works.

If you are experienced and know your affixes, and know to prioritize & stack WED/Flat Phys and some Accu, and the build can already shine pretty well on very little. This is more of a community understanding problem, where this day and age people wanna get spoonfed to the point where I wouldn't necessarily be surprised if they started inviting blasting over to their houses to play their characters for them (jokes).

But as long as you prioritize your affixes and know what to get exactly, you are gonna be just fine. No, you don't need a +2 Barrage Helm like this guide says or whatever, I have a +2 TS Enchant and my Barrage attack is just fine. What I do think is important is getting good Jewelry, and good 4-stat Jewels. It just adds so much to the damage and I don't think people are understanding this.

I just uploaded a video of me doing Shaper with a 6L Lioneye's Glare:

http://plays.tv/s/L9i1zfAn6Tze

Please ignore the opening death (not the point of the video anyways) as my computer has been acting up and I can't seem to get stable frame rate since DX11 update. It happened at the beginning anyways and the rest of the run is deathless.

As you can see here even a Lioneye's Glare, which I bought this one for a bargain of 3 ex in SC to do this test (and probably won't be able to sell it back), can be your end-game bow as long as you have the right gearing affixes.

So to Janus's point, no, you don't need 500 ex to play this build. In Standard, you probably need like 100 ex and a brain like every other expensive end-game build and you'll have a great time. However, I *do* think that the 5L ROTC "budget" run is a bit deceptive, since I can show you that with well tuned supporting gear, you can turn Lioneye's Glare into an all star. I think that's the point where people fold because they don't have the right supporting gear and think that it must be the Brood Twine and open their pockets :^)

Btw blasting, I think the 58 ex value of heretic's gear might be a little underestimated, as his gear is pretty damn good and he's min/max'ed out with 4-prop jewels and insane Jewelry. His gear atm, from a quick look, is waaaay past the 100 ex point, in either BSC or SC prices. Even early temp league prices you can't just say 1 ex in temp league is the same buying power as in SC.


actually chin sol is way better than 360 pdps binger, any time when it comes to barrage. : ) I still can defend the same idea. I agree with the rest you say.(lolheretic started killing shaper with an average gear than he started upgrading it)
"You have great power. You're right to be proud. It's unfortunate you have to die now, but I will honor you with 45% of my strength."
Just to be clear, it's recommended to have 2700+ Accuracy Rating?
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Hirogen wrote:
Just to be clear, it's recommended to have 2700+ Accuracy Rating?


2200+ is a must i think,

2700+ is very good.

i have 3288, i barely see myself missing a shot.

remember:

to be able to deal critical strikes you have to get succesful accuracy check 2 times,

one to hit;

after you pass "able to hit" accuracy check, the engine checks your accuracy again to deal critical strike or not.if you fail second accuracy check, you deal only normal damage. Even though you had succesful crit damage roll.

accuracy plays a hidden important role in dps calculations only few people care about.

so with 1300 accuracy and 70% crit chance, the crit chance vs shaper is probably around 30-35%.
then you see maybe that you have 80k barrage dps on tooltip but in practice you feel like you cant even damage at all.

this is the reason.

"
Accuracy
Accuracy measures the chance for an attack to hit. Accuracy-dependent attacks make a second accuracy check to confirm the critical strike. If the check fails only a normal hit is dealt. Thus accuracy can play an important role in quantity of critical strikes.[1]
"You have great power. You're right to be proud. It's unfortunate you have to die now, but I will honor you with 45% of my strength."
Last edited by Rupenus on Feb 21, 2017, 4:08:30 AM
Ok, that's probably the reason why I generally struggle with bosses.

How does one get a this high accuracy rating? Through jewels? any special nodes?

Maybe this should be pointed out in the Guide.
Last edited by Hirogen on Feb 21, 2017, 4:07:54 AM
"
Hirogen wrote:
Ok, that's probably the reason why I generally struggle with bosses.

How does one get a this high accuracy rating? Through jewels? any special nodes?

Maybe this should be pointed out in the Guide.


unfortunately the most efficient way to get accuracy is to get +accuracy from items. passive tree nodes dont help much if oyu dont have + accuracy from your items. the passive tree nodes only "increase" the already existing accuracy pool. while having a small pool of accuracy, any %increase is worthless. try to get accuracy from your gloves, helmet, rings, amulet. it's a suffix roll.

why signalshot has to struggle hard to get good accuracy compared to life base bow builds?

the main source of accuracy is dexterity and this build is based on ES items and walking around witch area, it doesnt have much dexterity.
"You have great power. You're right to be proud. It's unfortunate you have to die now, but I will honor you with 45% of my strength."
Last edited by Rupenus on Feb 21, 2017, 4:16:03 AM
Thanks for the info ;D
"
Rupenus wrote:
actually chin sol is way better than 360 pdps binger, any time when it comes to barrage. : ) I still can defend the same idea. I agree with the rest you say.(lolheretic started killing shaper with an average gear than he started upgrading it)


When it comes to Barrage though. And yes, I am familiar with Chin Sol & Point Blank modifier, bff's. But it doesn't do as well with TS/LA so you're planning on telling people to have that on swap right, as the guide says? But the guide doesn't say that. And says only 325 pDPS bow is fine, and makes no mention of Chin Sol. Also, if Chin Sol outperforms a 360 pDPS, then why tell the guy with Merciless/Flaring Bow (~450 pDPS) that he should replace it?

Don't know about you but that's definitely going to lead to confusion. Not arguing that it wouldn't be a powerful alternative for Barrage setup, but the delivery is what I was commenting on. There are other quotes that are similar is all, if you are gonna be the secondary advertiser of the guide then maybe clarify more.

About when heretic started killing shaper, my response was referring to:

"
Killing shaper in 3 Mins in temp leagues with 40-50ex invested? Literal video proof with gear links pages back demoing the power of this build with nothing legacy/mirrored under 60ex in breach.


It's pretty obvious that he started killing Shaper way before, and upgraded his gear. (In fact, that's how this game works. High five for saying something completely redundant) But pricing context is quite different in temp league, so when you say something is "under 60 ex" in temp league, you need to ask yourself is it Week 1? Week 5? Ending league times?

Because you can say a build is worth under 60 ex in a temp league, but if it's only a month into the league, I mean Skyforths are what? Like ~20-25 ex, Standard they are closer to 40. 400 pDPS Harbinger Bow in BSC was likely closer to 15 ex, and not 35 ex like in Standard. So I mentioned this because you can easily squeeze a larger Exalt value into gear and claim that it is cheaper under the pretense that it is from a temp league.

Only mentioning for clarification because we certainly don't want to send the wrong message to readers.

Amirite?
Fake Temp League Elitists LUL
Last edited by _Saranghaeyo_ on Feb 21, 2017, 8:38:28 AM
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if Chin Sol outperforms a 360 pDPS, then why tell the guy with Merciless/Flaring Bow (~450 pDPS) that he should replace it?


what? ha? please show me where i did that. what i remember was the g uy had 350-400 pdps weapon without crit on it. and no open suffixes prefixes(or crit chance was ruined with 11% roll or sth like that) and i told him to replace it with chin sol.

if i had done what you say, we can have a good laugh together about me. all good.

besides, i feel like i helped a lot of people in this guide, i dont find it fair, that people try to bash me because of one instance of what i did in 154 page conversation. (its not even sure i said "use chin sol over 450 pdps weapon" doesnt sound realistic to me, but let's see)

personal matters:

Spoiler
why did you try to sell me sidro's shavs +1 back in the days while sidro was agreeing on 500ex and you were okay for 200ex + 150ex worth chest, you made me believe that we had a deal. then i heard the chest is not yours its sidro's. was it scam? how can you sell one item that isnt yours? when i go back in time what we had in between about that +1 shavs is still a mistery for me


Spoiler
also another mistery for me is that if you've been thinking im such a guy that lacks so much knowledge that can recommend chin sol over 450 pdps harbinger why did you ask this to me:

"
Have had some random CI gear lying around from past leagues and wanna try out Signal Shot. I take it youve also had experience with the Life based version like I've been playing, didnt know if you wanted to share your experience like if you missed having Acro, etc. Figured it'd be a good way to learn a little more about ES builds, which I lack knowledge in.

Thanks Rup


you could just run a better build with your build making experiences/insight.

nothing makes sense here.

"You have great power. You're right to be proud. It's unfortunate you have to die now, but I will honor you with 45% of my strength."
Last edited by Rupenus on Feb 21, 2017, 2:11:42 PM
Ok since there is some misleading information, or if you want alternative facts as it's called today, let's show you guys some numbers of the Barrage DPS and a conclusion about the build.


First part: Tree and gear used in comparison

Tree used & tree setup notes

Tree for comparisons: http://poeurl.com/3D6 at Level 90, Bandits: Point, Point, Power Charge
Notes:
- there might be slightly more optimized trees but I think this is rock solid. It also is a good tree to compare because it can take Vaal Pact for 1 point for people not having legacy Vinktars and also can take 4% reduced mana for another 1 point if there is no Enlighten 4
- I prefer Master Surgeon over Master Alchemist by far because it refills flasks. Otherwise you will not have enough uptime IMO. Therefor I run a Shock Immunity flask.


Gear & Test Setup notes



Notes:
- Harbinger has 492 pDPS.
- My accuracy, as you can see in the Path of Building images later, is 92% thanks to a lot of accuracy on my gear. Effective crit chance is 83% with Diamond Flask after all rolls (hit roll on accuracy, crit roll on crit chance, crit confirmation roll on accuracy).
- My boot enchant is 16% Increased Attack and Cast Speed, which buffs my mapping DPS but not the DPS against Shaper.
- I am running a legacy attack vinktar. Despite people saying Penetration is better that is NOT TRUE as you can test with Path of Building. The attack version does more damage in mapping and has only a very minor disadvantage against Shaper.
- The 6-Link for Barrage is the maximum DPS variant: Barrage - Slower Projectiles - Physical to Lightning - Physical Projectile Attack Damage - Weapon Elemental Damage - Elemental Focus. Barrage and P2L are 19/20 gems, rest 20/20. You can squeeze out a bit of extra DPS with 21/20 gems. We will examine a possible use of Increased Critical Strikes with a Reach of the Council later.
- For mapping I often run a Quicksilver Flask instead of Atziri's Promise but will run with this setup for comparisons.
- The whole costs of this gear is way over 500 ex, but let's not be cheap for now.


Second part: Tooltip numbers and Comparison with Path of Building

All numbers can be checked in this album: http://imgur.com/a/iwM8K

Tooltip with only auras: 85.7K x 7 arrows = 600K DPS




Tooltip with Power Charges: 110.8K x 7 Arrows = 776K DPS




Tooltip with Power Charges, Flasks and Boot Enchant active (no Vaal Haste): 213.2K x 10 Arrows = 2.132 million DPS




Path of Building Calculation with Power Charges, Flasks, Ice Golem: 264K; without Diamond Flask 217K




Ok, so as we see, Path of Building Calculations are pretty close to our actual damage AND has the huge advantage of calculating in the use of a Diamond Flask.
!! From here on I'll be using the Path of Building numbers to give you some comparisons!!


Third part, let's now see the effect of the gear on the DPS of this build.

All following numbers are Path of Building calculations. Let's now see the sustainable DPS against big bosses (Guardians, Shaper), which is basically the most interesting thing.
Settings checked: Using Power Charges and Resists of 40/40/40 elemental and 25 chaos resist like T16 bosses and Shaper have, Enemy is Shocked due to Vinktar as well as all flasks checked in item tab. Flasks are the same as in my gear above unless noted.

My gear setup as above: 267K damage x 10 arrows = 2.67 million DPS
Screenshot: DPS with my gear




Mirrored gear set up: 392.2K damage x 10 arrows = 3.92 million DPS
This means changing the bow to Brood Twine, amulet to Vengeance Collar (mirrored with WED, phys, multi, accuracy etc). Other slots stay the same. Note: Changing Vessel of Vinktar to a penetration variant gives 1K more DPS per arrow, 10K more in total. In all other setups an attack Vinktar with nice rolls is BETTER!
Screenshot: Mirrored Bow + Ammy DPS




My gear set up with a top rolled legacy RotC: 180.9K damage x 10 arrows = 1.81 million DPS
As you can see, this is a huge drop compared to my Harbinger setup. Also the crit chance went down to 66%. The use of the Increased Critical Strike Chance instead of Physical Projectile gem brings it up to 83% again, but will lose us another 16K per arrow (164K DPS per arrow then).
Screenshot: Legacy Reach DPS




My gear set up with a top rolled nonlegacy RotC: 149.8K damage x 10 arrows = 1.5 million DPS
As you can see, this is a another drop. The use of the Increased Critical Strike Chance instead of Physical Projectile gem brings crit up to 83% again while dropping DPS to 137K per arrow.
Keep in mind, we're still running gear for 500+ ex in jewelry, +1 arrow quiver, legacy crit multi ammy and so on.
Screenshot: Nonlegacy Reach DPS




Example gear setup from page 1 127.5K damage x 9 arrows = 1.15 million DPS
So, this already includes a +2 Barrage Hubris with 400 ES, gloves with almost 300 ES and attack speed plus decent jewelry with a legacy crit multi; but no +1 arrow Signal Fire.
DPS went down to 1.15 million, which looks nice at first, but hit chance is 81%. This is less than a 30% of the DPS that you get with mirrored gear, while constantly dying due to not hitting enemies and therefore having no leech. Removing Atziri's Promis for a Quicksilver will lose another 26K per arrow, leaving only 101K DPS per arrow.
You're still looking at gear worth quite a bit, and with worse gear, no +2 Barrage helm, no +1 arrow Signal Fire you will most likely look at about 50K tooltip x 7 arrows = 350K DPS, less than 10% of the mirrored gear variant.
Screenshot: DPS in Path of Building





Last part: Conclusion

I hope you guys have some insights now why this build is extremely gear dependent and impossible to run without some heavy investment. What annoys me in this thread is that certain people act like this build can rule the world and dont mention the flaws of it. It is absolutely NOT noob friendly and not having accuracy on gear will completely fuck you up. It can be very powerful with good gear but a total waste without.


Thanks for reading

Janus


Note: My Tempest Eye Opal Ring adds 31K DPS for my build, in case you want to mirror it let me know ;-)
IGN: @JanusHuntress


Thanks GGG for caring so much about your players: https://redd.it/57wexj
Last edited by Janus171 on Feb 21, 2017, 2:43:51 PM
Lol Rup if you're going to air out dirty laundry then contact me about it I can clarify. I thought we had that one squared away anyways. Regarding my PM, since it looks like you did read it after all, please post the date of the PM if you're going to try to make me look bad?

That was when I was in BSC and wanted to come back to Standard to see what the fuss was all about, which I did mention I have no prior experience in gearing for this build, because I don't play CI. And I don't. In BSC I made my first CI char in this game ever. As it turns out, the gearing was pretty cheap to get basic stuff and I just spent some currency I had on some cheap ES gear (fucking shocker I know) and just said screw it. I tried as a courtesy to say hi and talk shop about the build, it's very clear that you might too elitist to talk to little old me in this case.

And the question was legit right? Basically boils down to me asking you about advantages/disadvantages of higher ES Pool vs lower life pool + Acro. Something that is pretty legitimate since I already had successes with Life build that is similar. I figured since we say hi to each other in Sarn from time to time and I was on mobile I'd just drop you a PM.

/e also odd you wanna do this in public and in blasting's thread. I tried to give a balanced view of the build, the Chin Sol thing is just something memorable from when I read the thread to do research. I wouldn't put too much weight on it ^^ It's on Page 92 when you tried to tell a guy in temp league to cut Duelist Leech Nodes and have no sources of Leech other than non-Legacy Vinktar.
Fake Temp League Elitists LUL
Last edited by _Saranghaeyo_ on Feb 21, 2017, 2:51:34 PM

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