The 7 main problems with HLD and how to fix them

Tala Moana,

What makes PvP bad today is the rock-paper-scissors system: certain mechanics are immensely strong and almost non-counterable by certain builds, while they are absolutely useless against other builds. This causes PvP results to be dictated much more by chance and setup then by skill.

The following 7 issues spoil HLD PvP a lot today. Therefor I suggest an alteration to them, to make PvP more balanced, fun and accesible. Most of my fixes shouldn't be too hard to program and all of them are PvP-only, so PvM remains completely unchanged (except for n°2).


1) Aegis Aurora: the ES gain on block has a pvp-only 0.5 seconds cooldown. This can make it less impossible for fast non-sword attackers to duel Aegis users.

2) Poison arrow (/chaos damage): a support gem that penetrates chaos resistance but makes your skill's poison damage not bypass enemy ES should be created. This boost allows Poison arrow to be nerfed a bit.

"lvl 20 Chaos Penetration: The chaos damage of this skill penetrates 25% chaos resistance, but it won't bypass Energy Shield anymore"

The consequences are that PA is less powerfull against low chaos resist (25% penetration e.g. is much stronger against a 75% chaos resist enemy then against a -60% chaos resist enemy), more powerfull against high chaos resist enemies and lastly, poison based builds will actually be able to compete against CI, who will have e.g. 75% chaos resist after penetration and take the (quarter of the) damage on their (high) ES.

3) Explosive arrow: a PvP-only longer fuse duration could make this into a very tactical skill. If EA users want to counter this nerf with a less duration support gem, they lose a socket.

4) Ice Storm: chill in general could be nerfed in pvp environments. Like: "33% less slowed by chill in PvP" should always apply.

5) Physical damage: is heavily nerfed in PvP but armour rating is not. That is plain unlogical. It again creates a rock-paper-scissors effect: if you have high armour you're almost immune against physical damage, if you have low or no armour physical damage is still very dangerous. So let's implement a pvp-formula to reduce armour ratings, in the same logic as the damage formula.

6) Legacy items: they hurt HLD PvP more then anything else. They make an enormous difference (Kaom's heart for insane life/regen, BoR for maxed block, aegis aurora,...) and make HLD even more elitist. They add to the reason there is such a huge gap between top players and casuals. If we don't try to reduce this gap, HLD PvP will always remain a scene where only a few top-players reside. This is bad even for those top players themselves, as they don't find anyone antmore to PvP with because the elite is so small.

The obvious fix (but maybe difficult to implement) is that in PvP areas all items temporarily adjust their values to the current versions, with their highest possible values. E.g. a legacy Kaom's Heart in PvP would feature 500 life and 40% fire damage. Legacy crit multi values on an amulet go down to the highest possible current roll. BoR would in pvp areas go down to the highest rolled current BoR version. Once the player leaves the pvp area, the items return to their original legacy status. So people don't lose them and can use them in PvM.

7) Block: is one of those damn rock-paper-scissors mechanics that makes PvP pointless. Max (spell) block is incredibly strong against attacks (/spells), but against poison arrow, explosive arrow or bear traps it's completely useless. There have been many debates about the BCR gem: make it stronger, make it white, add more block penetration to the tree,... . I think the most elegant sollution is to add a pvp formula to block that makes it regressive so harder to maximize. To compensate for this, the BCR gem can be nerfed too: you can still use it to penetrate block better, but it's less of a non-choice against max block builds then today.

I might still come up with a few more issues, but these 7 are the most important I think.

Are there so few PvPers these days that I don't even get a negative comment anymore, like: "GGG doesn't care about PvP" or something in that style?

"

Aegis Aurora: the ES gain on block has a pvp-only 0.5 seconds cooldown.

There are enough counters to the aegis mechanic; no need for an arbitrary pvp-only cooldown.

"

Poison arrow (/chaos damage): a support gem that penetrates chaos resistance but makes your skill's poison damage not bypass enemy ES should be created. [...] poison based builds will actually be able to compete against CI, who will have e.g. 75% chaos resist after penetration and take the (quarter of the) damage on their (high) ES.

So you'd like to see a new gem implemented that nullifies a keystone passive node. That's like asking for the blind gem to make RT characters able to be evaded, or the stun gem to allow you to stun a character with US/chayula. It just doesn't make any sense.
Chaos based characters know well enough that there are hard counters to their damage and they should build around it or have a swap ready for when they meet CI.

"

Ice Storm: chill in general could be nerfed in pvp environments. Like: "33% less slowed by chill in PvP" should always apply.

Mutewind whispersteps
Any flask of heat


In closing I'd like to say that I not only disagree with the rest of your proposed balance changes, but also that balance isn't the biggest issue for pvp at the moment.
The biggest problem I see is just that there aren't enough people playing because they can't justify spending their limited time and resources in something with as little incentive as pvp currently has.

The way I see it there are a couple requirements to build a solid pvp community and ultimately to make pvp an integral part of Path of Exile:

1. GGG has to find a way to incentivise pvp
Wether it's through pvp seasons with alt art rewards, a better ranking system with some minor rewards (achievements?, titels?, ...?), etc.

2. Availability of information concerning pvp
This one is for us, the pvp community, to do something about. Lack of information is probably the biggest entry barrier for newcomers. During season 1 and 2 there were a few good souls who made elaborate pvp guides. I'm thinking of fightgars general lld thread and feathers' lld build guide compilation thread.

3. Focus on Team battles (2v2 and 3v3)
90% of balance and hard counter issues can be resolved in a team-based environment, where some of your build's weaknesses can be complemented by your teammmates' strenghts. This focus on team battles requires a bigger playerbase but I think season 2 proved that there are people willing to try.

There are more issues I'd like to tackle but I have to go so I might update later :)

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There are enough counters to the aegis mechanic; no need for an arbitrary pvp-only cooldown.

If your build is largely based on extreme fast cast or attack speed, I don't see any viable counter.

"

So you'd like to see a new gem implemented that nullifies a keystone passive node. That's like asking for the blind gem to make RT characters able to be evaded, or the stun gem to allow you to stun a character with US/chayula. It just doesn't make any sense.
Chaos based characters know well enough that there are hard counters to their damage and they should build around it or have a swap ready for when they meet CI.

It certainly doesn't nullify the keystone! After penetration you're left with 75% chaos resist without any chaos resist investment apart from CI. So In this case CI becomes the following trade-of:

"+135% chaos resistance (75% + 60%), enemy chaos damage doesn't bypass your ES, life is 1"

That still seems a good deal. It would also allow to balance out chaos damaging skills better. Now they are all or nothing. If you have -60% resist, you die, if you have 75%, they can't touch you. The penetration gem would limit that to 50% max chaos resist. CI would still rule chaos with their 75% chaos resist AFTER penetration and huge ES pool, but at least the fights don't become entirely pointless.

I am strongly opposed against ANY immunity, as it always creates rock-paper-scissors effects. The Stun gem removing stun immunity actually sounds good to me, but only with a drawback vs those formerly stun immune enemies (e.g.: "enemy stun immunity becomes 100% increased stun recovery").

"

Mutewind whispersteps
Any flask of heat

These are valid arguments. I still believe chill is too powerful in PvP, but that is indeed very debatable. Let's see what other people think.

"

In closing I'd like to say that I not only disagree with the rest of your proposed balance changes, but also that balance isn't the biggest issue for pvp at the moment.
The biggest problem I see is just that there aren't enough people playing because they can't justify spending their limited time and resources in something with as little incentive as pvp currently has.

I believe part of the little incentive comes from the rock-paper-scissors system and too high gear requirements (through legacies e.g.). If you balance those out, I'm sure more people will come to PvP.

"

1. GGG has to find a way to incentivise pvp
Wether it's through pvp seasons with alt art rewards, a better ranking system with some minor rewards (achievements?, titels?, ...?), etc.

100% agree. And I believe almost the entire PvP community wants this. It's a riddle why GGG didn't offer us something in this field yet.

"

2. Availability of information concerning pvp
This one is for us, the pvp community, to do something about. Lack of information is probably the biggest entry barrier for newcomers. During season 1 and 2 there were a few good souls who made elaborate pvp guides. I'm thinking of fightgars general lld thread and feathers' lld build guide compilation thread.

100% agree. PvP guides are lacking.

"

3. Focus on Team battles (2v2 and 3v3)
90% of balance and hard counter issues can be resolved in a team-based environment, where some of your build's weaknesses can be complemented by your teammmates' strenghts. This focus on team battles requires a bigger playerbase but I think season 2 proved that there are people willing to try.

I have my doubts on this one. A huge amount of players never team up. We could try ofcourse and check the results...

Thanks for responding,
Feel free to add more!

EA: Single target damage buff, Big AoE reduction, Big duration addition - only in pvp

"

Monstacookie wrote:

"

Aegis Aurora: the ES gain on block has a pvp-only 0.5 seconds cooldown.

There are enough counters to the aegis mechanic; no need for an arbitrary pvp-only cooldown.

I would like to know what kind of counter an APS rt based toon using something like an axe/mace/staff can get VS aegis leg users with full block and ES regen.

Even with BCR and BCR on item if this AEGIS user also use icewall and move speed there is no way you can pass his block regen before he regain it.

ES regen CI+Aegis is a big problem atm.

"

Rupenus wrote:

EA: Single target damage buff, Big AoE reduction, Big duration addition - only in pvp

would be nice, considering how STUPID the 1 vs 1 arena are made and how almost everythign is helping EA to stuck there, a big aoe reduction would be necessary.

Also the ability to stick on floor should be canceled in sarn at least. The center control+ floor spam explosion is the most broken stuff ever.

"

I would like to know what kind of counter an APS rt based toon using something like an axe/mace/staff can get VS aegis leg users with full block and ES regen.

Even with BCR and BCR on item if this AEGIS user also use icewall and move speed there is no way you can pass his block regen before he regain it.

ES regen CI+Aegis is a big problem atm.

"

Rupenus wrote:

EA: Single target damage buff, Big AoE reduction, Big duration addition - only in pvp

would be nice, considering how STUPID the 1 vs 1 arena are made and how almost everythign is helping EA to stuck there, a big aoe reduction would be necessary.

Also the ability to stick on floor should be canceled in sarn at least. The center control+ floor spam explosion is the most broken stuff ever.

use heavy strike or lightning strike vs Aegis builds.

ThuslaDoom was using LS vs Aegis builds. It was working great. Why? Aegis builds have very high armor. with LS, since you can do pure light damage, their armor amount is totally something that you shouldn worry about.

This is where my past build LS' idea comes from also. Thanks to Thusla.

RRGGBB(ideal RT cyclone colors)

Lightning Strike + Weapon ele damage + BCR + slower projectiles + phys to light + light pen is your setup.

cyclone is not global solution for everything.

with Lightning strike you wouldnt proc their OPie OP molten shell also. Use dorian belt while catching your opponent with leap slam procs molten shell and gives you troubles.

GL!

Also about crit multi amulets, and generally legacy items,

trust me losing x2 30 crit multi would change no shit about my build. Most of my gear is just to be able to think... this is final... this build has in its own highest limits asnd therefore getting a relief and confidence about my build. But in fact you can do my build with /2 budget with 5-10% less effectiveness. legacy items differences impact the game much much lesser than skill gems balance.

Mulla did a oros sacrifice 2H RT cyclone build. It seems only 10-15% lesser weakerr than Avatar of fire mind fang(500ex sword) cyclone. Well with both, i die in 1 second if got initiated. : )

As i stated before, only legacy kaoms makes big difference in this meta. I dont care whether its nerfed or not, it adds more challenge to high level pvp scene. Thats all i want.

U say characteristic: "This causes PvP results to be dictated much more by chance and setup then by skill." .From my 15 years experience on MMORPG i can tell you for sure that role play games are ONLY SETUP and ITEM and no skill! IF u want Skill GO play COUNTER STRIKE! Legacy items existed on Diablo 2 they MUST exist and used on pvp on PoE ,if u want to be elite u can buy them! Legacy Aegis can be found with 12 exalted! Not that fkin much compair to other Mirror crit items which cost 500 ex!!!
As about CI immune to Chaos i must remind you that CI are so vulnerable to stuns / freeze-chilled / ignite / Shock !!! The block to scale is already hard, i use so many block items + Block nodes from skill tree and i am still far from MAX BLOCK !

1. Fix ALL Shotgunning (EA/LA/Trap). Fix Level bugs with EA explosions (higher ground etc...)
2. Frostwall no longer works with CWDT/Totem. Manual cast only. Duration reduced.
3. Block pen on tree for all weapon types.
4. Change BCR gem to white.