[3.3] TheAmigoShotz! -Lifebased Windripper Raider! Insane Clearspeed + Deathless Shaper!

Apparently penetration doesn't affect reflect damage
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1615527/page/6#p13014218

Edit:
To summarize

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Mark_GGG wrote:

... The reason penetration cannot apply to reflected damage has nothing to do with it being "on-hit", but is because the way reflection is calculated means your offensive stats can affect whether you take reflected damage (accuracy, block chance reduction, etc), but cannot affect the value of the damage if you do (penetration, ignoring resistance, damage modifiers, etc).

Also, godlyatheist is claiming vaal pact doesn't help with reflect. Bullshit. He's spewing a bunch of bs. Take his recent posts with a grain of salt

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o_osuper wrote:

52% lightning WED is only for lightning, which all depends on how much of your overall damage is lightning, while projectile damage is all damage, not just lightning.
The lightning penetration is a multiplier, but it depends on the enemy resistance, and if you curse the res is even lower, and how much penetration we already have, and again, depends on how much of our overall damage is lightning.

Written in Blood takes 6 passives to get to, making the life effectively ~3.3%, which is slightly better than spending 4 points on the duelist nodes only getting 3% per point, but the extra AS and evasion make up for the 0.3% per point.

Essentially the main difference between whether or not my tree or the tree listed in the build is how much of your damage is lightning, and how much penetration you can get.

As mentioned in the post, you can get ~13% from ele weakness, we get 11% all from the new WED nodes, and we can get the 10% from boots, getting 34% penetration for all elements.
Now, that's not quite the 40% that he says is good for shaper and guardians, but I wouldn't really use this build to do them, I'd mainly use this build to farm currency and uniques, since you can get all the previous leagues uniques.

And depending on your gear, you might have ~50% lightning damage, and the other 50% be a mix of cold, fire, and phys. Having 30% projectile damage in this case would be better than the 52% lightning damage, while the penetration would give more damage in some cases, but for general farming, having some more defenses and a similar amount of damage would be better. Of course, this depends on how much of your overall damage ends up as lightning or not.

You are making an assumption that we don't know the damage distribution when it can be precisely determined by using tools like Path of Building. Intuitively, Wrath and Added Lightning grossly outweigh the damage from HoI. Fully geared as per the guide, you will have only 1 flat ele dmg roll to choose from the gear as DPS stats aside form WED and crit. So the only thing that can shift the balance is the flat roll on jewelry and quiver. If they are all T1 Lightning, then your Lightning to Cold Damage Ratio is approximately 5:1. Even if they are all Cold, it won't differ that much because the flat value of those rolls pale in comparison to Wrath and Added Lightning. If you don't believe me, try it for yourself whether on PoB or using Excel. It's impossible to get 50% Cold and 50% Lighting when you follow the build. Arcing Blow is a net increase in dps compared to inc proj damage period, but that's not all:

Written in Blood does not take 6 points to get to. The two 10 Int nodes are absolutely necessary for you to use Wrath. as is the 10 Int on the way to Arcing Blow. By the way, your tree starts at Lvl 95 and it's missing over 100 int necessary for the 155 Wrath needs. The original build only has 96, but it's 2 points saved compared to yours so I consider it more optimized. You can either path to life nodes while picking up Int or ignoring the Int requirement and sacrifice something else. If you sacrifice suffix on jewelry or jewel slots to make up for Int, it's a massive loss. A well rolled jewel will give over 10k dps, besting almost every other 2 point dps nodes.

Also, penetration gets better when you stack more it because it is a multiplier. Bigger multiplier = bigger results. It doesn't matter if the mob has 40 or 0 resist, it will outscale the 30% additive increased damage. Surely you don't need me to show you the math for this?

This isn't an attack against you, simply because this build is known and we know how it does damage. Your suggestions that Lightning Damage isn't the overwhelming output of the build is just wrong. I'm simply pointing out that the optimization you did doesn't accomplish anything.

"

o_osuper wrote:

Apparently penetration doesn't affect reflect damage
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1615527/page/6#p13014218

Edit:
To summarize

"

Mark_GGG wrote:

... The reason penetration cannot apply to reflected damage has nothing to do with it being "on-hit", but is because the way reflection is calculated means your offensive stats can affect whether you take reflected damage (accuracy, block chance reduction, etc), but cannot affect the value of the damage if you do (penetration, ignoring resistance, damage modifiers, etc).

Ok, I stand corrected. This doesn't change the fact that even at the lowest 13% reflect, your reflect damage out pace the instant 2% leech from VP. VP will let you live longer, but eventually you will die when enough reflects connect. If really want to see if reflect kills you, try a -max resist map xD

"

monkuar wrote:

Also, godlyatheist is claiming vaal pact doesn't help with reflect. Bullshit. He's spewing a bunch of bs. Take his recent posts with a grain of salt
The Primeval keystone will help a bit with reflect right?

I really hope this build doesn't turn into YET ANOTHER REFLECT PRONE builds that I do in a league where I reach the high 80's, then just keep randomly 1 shotting myself (with full resists, etc) to a RNG reflect pack.. :(. I then ultimately quit.



I hope that isn't the case here where we can atleast survive an accidental shot into a reflect pack :(

Because I really want to go for max level this league

See above. The basic math is sound regardless of whether penetration applies. I do apologize for the wrong information but that's how I thought it worked when I did theorycrafting. VP lets you live longer, but it doesn't 100% prevent 1 shot from reflect. How do it know this? Even the King of the Forest build that does 75% chaos damage can die to phys reflect if you don't equip Dyandian Dawn, I played it and died that way.

The reflect damage node will help. You can also play as Elementalist, go CI or Life and get even more reflect reduction. Equip a Sybil's Lament if you must for another 30% reduction. You don't need to go the highest level map to get to 100. It's faster to farm stuff like Shaped Strand. Really scared of Ele reflect? Sell that map or trade for another one without. GGG never intended every build do to every map mod.

BTW, it's listed under "Cons"

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Reflect maps = RIP

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Alshadur wrote:

Reflect hits take my penetration into account? Damn I didn't know that, that's awful.
This build just gets more and more terrible the more I look at it.. it frustrates me that I can't find a build that I truly like for this league.

Anyways thanks very much for your explainations godlyatheist.

I had some wrong info, but the general idea is right. Sorry for any confusion.

Hey mate looks like the 2.6 skill tree you posted its incomplete, cant wait to play this build from tomorrow and on good job and thanks!

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jonrosado wrote:

Hey mate looks like the 2.6 skill tree you posted its incomplete, cant wait to play this build from tomorrow and on good job and thanks!

You have to load it in 3rd party tools, the official site isn't updated to 2.6 yet.

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godlyatheist wrote:

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jonrosado wrote:

Hey mate looks like the 2.6 skill tree you posted its incomplete, cant wait to play this build from tomorrow and on good job and thanks!

You have to load it in 3rd party tools, the official site isn't updated to 2.6 yet.

Okay thanks!

As a clarification for reflect, I went to look at the GGG posts. Here's how it works:

Reflect is a flat % of the damage you would deal to a target, regardless of how much life they lost.

If a map has 18% ele reflect and you deal 1000 Fire damage to a target with 100 HP:

You will take 180 Fire Damage from reflect, then mitigated by your defense. Reflect does NOT care how much life the target lost, only how much damage you dealt to it. Leech works the same way. With 2% Leech, you will Leech back 20 HP because that's 2% of the 1000 you dealt to the target.

Please reference this GGG post https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/278097/page/1

So if you play a build that does 100,000 damage per hit in map that has 18% reflect, you will take 1800 in reflect damage per each reflect that lands you, pre-mitigation.

"

godlyatheist wrote:

You are making an assumption that we don't know the damage distribution when it can be precisely determined by using tools like Path of Building. Intuitively, Wrath and Added Lightning grossly outweigh the damage from HoI. Fully geared as per the guide, you will have only 1 flat ele dmg roll to choose from the gear as DPS stats aside form WED and crit. So the only thing that can shift the balance is the flat roll on jewelry and quiver. If they are all T1 Lightning, then your Lightning to Cold Damage Ratio is approximately 5:1. Even if they are all Cold, it won't differ that much because the flat value of those rolls pale in comparison to Wrath and Added Lightning. If you don't believe me, try it for yourself whether on PoB or using Excel. It's impossible to get 50% Cold and 50% Lighting when you follow the build. Arcing Blow is a net increase in dps compared to inc proj damage period, but that's not all:

Written in Blood does not take 6 points to get to. The two 10 Int nodes are absolutely necessary for you to use Wrath. as is the 10 Int on the way to Arcing Blow. By the way, your tree starts at Lvl 95 and it's missing over 100 int necessary for the 155 Wrath needs. The original build only has 96, but it's 2 points saved compared to yours so I consider it more optimized. You can either path to life nodes while picking up Int or ignoring the Int requirement and sacrifice something else. If you sacrifice suffix on jewelry or jewel slots to make up for Int, it's a massive loss. A well rolled jewel will give over 10k dps, besting almost every other 2 point dps nodes.

Also, penetration gets better when you stack more it because it is a multiplier. Bigger multiplier = bigger results. It doesn't matter if the mob has 40 or 0 resist, it will outscale the 30% additive increased damage. Surely you don't need me to show you the math for this?

This isn't an attack against you, simply because this build is known and we know how it does damage. Your suggestions that Lightning Damage isn't the overwhelming output of the build is just wrong. I'm simply pointing out that the optimization you did doesn't accomplish anything.

This is getting way too long

Stats


Damage types


Penetration


Reflect


Basically, either one works, I'm just saying mine probably works better when you don't have as much lightning damage, and it gives you some more survivability, and may be more useful in general mapping, which is why I think it warrants a test.

"

o_osuper wrote:

Spoiler

This is getting way too long

Stats

Spoiler

You can't really just say that 2 int nodes are absolutely necessary, they are a cost of travel, you can get 30 int with 1 point as opposed to 20 int with 2 points, and with good gear, you don't need the int anyway, the only suffix on jewelry that are useful are res, crit multi, accuracy, and stats. you can also get the stats on any gear, with essence crafting too.

Damage types

Spoiler

Now we aren't doing 50% lightning 50% cold, the phys on the bow itself is ~20-90 with quality, that and the cold damage on the bow averages to double the lightning damage, just counting what the bow itself gives you. Now you get a lot more lightning damage from other sources, which is why I'm generalizing and saying ~50% lightning with the other ~50% being a mix. you could get more or less, you can't say exactly what % lightning we'll have, since you can get flat ele damage added on jewelry, quiver, and gloves as well.

Following this guide, you will end up with more than 50% lightning damage, wrath and added lightning damage will do that, but you could get a decent amount of other damage from gear.

Penetration

Spoiler

Penetration isn't as simple as a MORE multiplier, it is dependent on resistance. Penetration gains increased effectiveness when the enemy has more resists. 10% pen on a 50% res is 20% more damage, while on a 0 res its only 10%. when we already have even more pen and the elemental weakness is more effective on normal mobs, making their total res -30% or lower. When you calculate 10% pen then its only a ~7% more.
And this is only affecting your lightning damage, which if built like this guide, will be a majority of your damage, but it still isn't 100%, so that % more will decrease even more, with the 50% lightning as a example, you would be at 3.5% more for general clearing.

Now the lightning pen isn't 10%, its 8%, so the example isn't accurate, but the idea is still the same. The more multiplier is nice, probably better than increase unless you get a whole lot of it, but this only increases the lightning damage, which makes reflect more deadly, which is in the next point.

Reflect

Spoiler

also for reflect, if we are already killing ourselves to reflect, don't need to boost the elemental damage even more to kill ourselves faster. Getting some evasion, even with diminishing returns, and increased projectile damage, which increases the phys damage as well, which in turn increases leech without increasing reflect, even if its just a little bit, still helps with the survivability.

Basically, either one works, I'm just saying mine probably works better when you don't have as much lightning damage, and it gives you some more survivability, and may be more useful in general mapping, which is why I think it warrants a test.

I don't wanna sound like I'm trying to beat you on the internet or anything so I'll keep it short.

It's either your way: duelist -> 4% life nodes -> 30 int node -> Int on Jewels or
OP's way: Int -> 5% life nodes -> 30 int nodes -> no need for Int on Jewels

You say your way is a good alternative, I disagree but it just depends on the gear you have. Let's call it even.

What else are people going to use besides Wrath and HoI? Anger and HoT? That just increases the STR requirement, there are only a finite number of ways to add flat ele. I do agree let people experiment themselves and see what they find out.

Reflect. If you really want to be safe for general mapping, I highly recommend going CI as Elementalist. You take way less reflect damage and the proliferation will let you 1 shot an entire screen, doesn't get easier than that. Nothing beats not risking a RIP in ele reflect map but this would be my solution.

That's that, no more.

Tired at the moment so i might be be seeing things straight but i have been play testing this build and i'm currently in act 1 merc lvl 56 trying to get a feel for it before the next league sine i plan on doing it.

First off i want to say i am having a lot of fun however i am running into mana problems atm and not leeching enough, swapped out some gear and got lazy and was testing out different setups, also have Elreon's rings/amulet but they are not on right now. My question is what is the best advice for mana without a vinktars, the rest of the leech node circle at the bottom? i'm not high enough for vinktars nor do i own one in standard (yet at least). I have just been spamming mana pots in every fight even before i swapped out gear when it was less mana usage.