More Forsaken Masters Information

"

PandaBears wrote:

"

Archwizard wrote:

How people have a problem with the 1500 fuse price tag is beyond me when Chris explicitly stated it's relative to the overall odds of getting a 6-link from one orb of fusing. If the odds are 1/1400 then the price of 1500 makes complete and utter sense. If you use them one by one, you might get lucky, you might not. Do it long enough and it will work out to 1 6L every 1400 fusings. If you don't want to deal with the gambling, you pay a premium to know you're getting a 6L.

People are not being punished for being casual or not having as much time or anything else, since the price is directly tied to the existing odds they're gambling with right now.

the reason is that it should be easier to get 6l than spending 25 exalted worth of fusing on an item, especially when you could otherwise buy an entire character with some very good items for the same price. i've played for several months, sometimes hours every day, and have yet to accumulate much more than 10 exalts worth of items. good currency is rare, and good items are incredibly rare, so basically new players will have to play for months before being able to afford a 6l item.

does it seem reasonable for the chance to get 6l to be 1/1400? how long does it take to find 1400 fusing orbs? to find 1400x4 jeweller's orbs and vendor them? 1400x4x2 alts? it seems only fair that either the master's fusing cost be a significant benefit, or the chances of getting 6l should be improved. if the master's fusing cost would be less than the chances of 6l'ing, it should require some very challenging quests that require full parties using teamwork. otherwise it would go greatly appreciated by many if the chances were in the players favor rather than randomnesses favor. a 1/1400 chance to 6l makes players rely on random luck and great wealth. tabula rasa is a great item to help poor people get their 6l, yet it lacks so many attributes that other armors can provide, and basically no single support gem can make up for the loss of armor/eva/es/life/res and the other great mods armor can provide.

i'm not complaining about GGG's decisions, but if they made the game favor the poor rather than favor the rich, new players wouldn't feel so far behind the rest of the rich veterans. there are many good ways to help new players. increasing the chances of finding currency, the chances of finding items worth using (honestly, high level maps give almost as many vanilla items as normal questing maps), and by improving the items available at vendors. masters selling good and unique items will be a great help, but it's much more fun to find good items while playing.

while it is something to consider that good items being rare makes finding them that much more fun, currency find-rates and relative values have gotten rather odd. exalteds are incredibly rare, yet it costs somewhere around 150 exalteds to buy a mirror of kalandra. so to make a copy of an item costs about 150x more than most items cost. also, chaos orbs are very rare, but you have to find or trade for 30-33 to be able to afford an exalted, and while they grant the benefit of adding a stat to any rare item, the price make it so that primarily wealthy players can afford to do so.

in summary, it would be nice if the game were balanced so that new and poor players would have better chances of acquiring and improving good items.

thanks GGG

There are so many flaws in this, it's kind of unreal.

For One: Accept now that a 6L is meant to be a luxury item. The screenshot shows 5L as 150 fusings, a very reasonable price for anyone who actually will need one. This means that yes, you can buy good gear for cheaper than one 6L depending on build, and that has a lot to do with market forces.



And yes, given the power of the 6L, it does seem reasonable to have super low odds. My problems with fusings are never with the odds of 6L, they're with the crappy odds of 4L and how the RNG seems to be excessively biased towards 1L/2L.

For Two: Given that you know the outcome, and at level 6 you can trade for currency at more favorable rates than the existing vendors, you are getting serious beenfit from the masters.

For Three: Quests that require full parties using teamwork are such a bad idea that it might be the king of bad ideas. A ton of people like playing solo. A ton of people like playing in groups of fewer than 6 players. You cannot just tell all those players to suck it up and party.

For Four: Have you met the ARPG genre? There's so much luck and randomness involved it's a staple of these things. Just today I had a 6L Infernal Sword drop. It probably is worth more than most of my 1 month gear (minus certain uniques) combined. Shit happens, I got lucky. I've also only ever found 3 exalteds in my 2+ years of playing this game.

For Five: Your Tab Rasa argument actually PROVES that 6L is a luxury compared to a nice 5L piece, which is reasonably priced.

For Six: Favor the poor how? Tax people? This statement just makes no sense at all.

For Seven: Increasing currency/drops/etc favors everyone, and the market will adjust as things happen. See the spoiler above.

For Eight: This statement: "new players wouldn't feel so far behind the rest of the rich veterans" is the player's problem, not the game's. If you have a case of epeen envy, or Keeping Up With The Jonesesitis, you're doomed no matter what. The game cannot make your time here since July 2013 feel like mine Since OB started in Jan 2013 without shanking me or artificially boosting you. I SHOULD have more wealth in Standard than you do, simply by having been here longer (assuming all other things are equal, like trading, playtime, whatnot).

For Nine: You clearly have no idea what goes on with Mirrors and all that. The items that get a mirror used on them are top of the line, incredible items that no one in their right mind would ever sell. There's a reason mirror services exist. You pay someone for the privilege of getting your own copy of an insane item. None of that has anything to do with anything else going on with 1.2 or the underlying issues. It's like worrying about what Bill Gates is doing with his time and money compared to someone making $40k/year.

For Ten: You know recipes exist to make chaos orbs (and other currency, such as chance orbs, alchemy orbs, etc) right? Very easy to use recipes. Sure, finding the jewelry to make it work is the limiting factor, but it's really not that bad, especially with the rogue exiles if you have decent magic find. Issues like knowledge of those recipes and other actual game mechanics are far, far more pressing than anything you've said to help new players along.

I concur with ArchWizard. It costs a fortune if you want OP gear and only less than 1% of those have this type gear beyond 1 item so it all works out in the end. Now the impact of skill tree changes keeps people from becoming complacent with their builds and mixes things up a bit.

-StarTekatHome

Honestly, If you just keep your head down and actually play the game without worrying so much you will find your shit soon.

I think there are lot of impatient new players who wants to learn how to fly before they even crawl.

POE is a grinding game , with all grinding game, the best items need a huge amount of time , trading acumen and luck to make it to end game.

I am pretty much a casual player but within the past year and a half , i have found 2 6 linked armors and randomly 6 linked an item after less than 50 fuse.

I might not have gotten a sharvonnes or mirror during my runs but so far I have found a COE, windripper and Lion's Eye randomly.

Maybe those who complain should actually cool down and just play the game as it is, I am sure something nice will drop and once in a while you will get lucky with finds.

lol. i didn't expect a 6L before the patch, and i dont expect one after. i can buy a cheep 5L for one chaos if my build is going to benefit from an extra link more than some good stats. its a bandaid that carries one along until better gear can be acquired. for 12c, i can get some great stats with those links. no, we don't all need to feel entitled to 6L. if i ever dont suck enough to actually get into higher maps, perhaps i will QQ about this, but at 74 maps, a 5L is fine. lots of builds out there that get you into maps with a 4 link. so expecting a 6L is like saying i should be given an honorary PhD just because i think im awesome when im still working through my undergrad credits. some children are blessed. most of us toil. and this is a game about toil, about beating the odds. Dom exiled us cuz he wants us dead. but we prevail anyway. live: stick it to the man! so funny.

i am alarmed how many alts ppl make in an hour tho. i didn't know i sucked so bad! omg.

to really address the needs of "the poor" (ie; inexperienced and newer players) i dont think its about drop rates or access to good gear earlier (although good gear early on really does help!), its making sure ppl have access to the recipes in an easy way. its surprising to me how many ppl will not go to the wiki or forums to seek out info. to compensate, i post links on my fb wall for my lazy friends, cuz they frustrate me when they dont have info. lmao. so im still an advocate of an ingame menu of discovered recipes, chat commands, hotkey shortcuts, and links to info on how to set up a shop and where to search for gear to purchase. took me forever to realize there were shop aggregators. before that, the idea of shopping was absurd. but someone had to tell me about the aggregator sites ingame. so expecting noobs to just know is unrealistic imo, especially if they are playing solo. an ingame help menu that isn't too simplistic will help noobs, especially those with selective illiteracy when it comes to researching the game.

i am really excited about the upcoming expansion. i have some fears, but over all, its sounds really good. and my lack of possessing a 6 link probably isn't going to change for a league or two more at least. im just not good enough yet. there have to be rewards for success, and top end gear is one of those. if you cant make a build that can get you into maps with a 4 or 5 link, you need to do some research and see what your overlooking. save up a bit of currency and buy an upgrade, but that doesn't have to be a 6L. i have not yet earned my doctorate in PoE. when i put in the work to get there, on that day, i will be worthy.

lmao. i think this is all very funny.

I think what people missed about grinding games like d2 for example is that you really need a dedicated MFe.

To play this game or any game that is similar to POE or Diablo with a dedicated magic find character really slows down your progress by a huge lot.

In Diablo 2 we always start out with a Necro summoner or Sorc until we get good enough gears to maybe make a Hammerdin.

I guess a lot of new players just want to come into the game , make a character that they like but have problems magic finding quickly and efficiently thus creating alot of problems down the road for them unless they get really lucky.

The problems that we might be seeing now in regards to bad RNG and bad drop rates are basically just that.

Its a very captain obvious answer to a lot of solutions but there are heaps of players still do not see it.

"

Chris wrote:

...for players who don't want to use 2000 fusings and fail to six-link an item, you can pay 1500 to do it at a crafting bench.

Will there be varying 6L Fuse prices based on rarity? From what I understand, it's easiest to 6L a normal item and hardest to 6L a unique item. Wouldn't it make sense for the cost to reflect the rarity of item you want to link?

"

Tempada wrote:

Will there be varying 6L Fuse prices based on rarity? From what I understand, it's easiest to 6L a normal item and hardest to 6L a unique item.[Citation Needed] Wouldn't it make sense for the cost to reflect the rarity of item you want to link?

reply to: "Archwizard"
There are so many flaws in this, it's kind of unreal.

that's your opinion, not mine, or anyone else's. thanks for the thorough reply... yet you don't seem very good at considering alternate opinions than your own.

For One: Accept now that a 6L is meant to be a luxury item. The screenshot shows 5L as 150 fusings, a very reasonable price for anyone who actually will need one. This means that yes, you can buy good gear for cheaper than one 6L depending on build, and that has a lot to do with market forces.

why should it be a luxury item? why should 5l be reasonable to get an 6l be unreasonable?



ok, yet it's more fun to find good items than to trade for them. also, you have to find good items to be able to trade for good items.

And yes, given the power of the 6L, it does seem reasonable to have super low odds. My problems with fusings are never with the odds of 6L, they're with the crappy odds of 4L and how the RNG seems to be excessively biased towards 1L/2L.

6l isn't much more powerful than a 5l is compared to a 4l. support gems are great but still, 4l is commonly enough for a skill to be decent/usable.

For Two: Given that you know the outcome, and at level 6 you can trade for currency at more favorable rates than the existing vendors, you are getting serious beenfit from the masters.

agreed

For Three: Quests that require full parties using teamwork are such a bad idea that it might be the king of bad ideas. A ton of people like playing solo. A ton of people like playing in groups of fewer than 6 players. You cannot just tell all those players to suck it up and party.

ok, maybe a very challenging quest or series of quests then

For Four: Have you met the ARPG genre? There's so much luck and randomness involved it's a staple of these things. Just today I had a 6L Infernal Sword drop. It probably is worth more than most of my 1 month gear (minus certain uniques) combined. Shit happens, I got lucky. I've also only ever found 3 exalteds in my 2+ years of playing this game.

ok, why follow the standards of other games rather than GGG making their own decisions on how they want their game to be? favoring the players rather than the standards of the RPG genre should be considered.

For Five: Your Tab Rasa argument actually PROVES that 6L is a luxury compared to a nice 5L piece, which is reasonably priced.

what do you mean by "proves that 6l is a luxury"? 6l tabula is not a very good item to use, for the reason already explained, the other attributes armor can offer are better than what the extra support gem can offer.

For Six: Favor the poor how? Tax people? This statement just makes no sense at all.

favor the poor by increasing the chances of finding good items, and allowing them to be able to afford to 6l items.

For Seven: Increasing currency/drops/etc favors everyone, and the market will adjust as things happen. See the spoiler above.

yeah, and the market has such a variety of values that some changes may help. for a good item to cost 1 exalt and an item a little better to cost 5-10 exalts seems unfair.

For Eight: This statement: "new players wouldn't feel so far behind the rest of the rich veterans" is the player's problem, not the game's. If you have a case of epeen envy, or Keeping Up With The Jonesesitis, you're doomed no matter what. The game cannot make your time here since July 2013 feel like mine Since OB started in Jan 2013 without shanking me or artificially boosting you. I SHOULD have more wealth in Standard than you do, simply by having been here longer (assuming all other things are equal, like trading, playtime, whatnot).

ok, if you play more you earn better items, so it will logically require a new player to play a similar amount of time to earn as many good items. however, if the chances were better for finding good items, new players would be able to afford good enough builds to play high level maps and play end-game areas. as it is, it would probably take a new player months before being able to play against atziri, and many more months to play uber atziri. that seems unfair when considering all of the hype around those bosses. denying new players access to new content like that seems unfair, and a way to make things fairer is to make it easier to find good and usable items.

For Nine: You clearly have no idea what goes on with Mirrors and all that. The items that get a mirror used on them are top of the line, incredible items that no one in their right mind would ever sell. There's a reason mirror services exist. You pay someone for the privilege of getting your own copy of an insane item. None of that has anything to do with anything else going on with 1.2 or the underlying issues. It's like worrying about what Bill Gates is doing with his time and money compared to someone making $40k/year.

i know that, and you clearly have no idea what i have any ideas about. so why shouldn't poorer players be able to copy "fairly good" items they find? why only allow the super rich to copy their items? how many items are even worth 150 exalts, and worth exalting? the mirror of kalandra is a great idea, yet it shouldn't be made so exclusive that only the super rich and super lucky are able to play with them.

For Ten: You know recipes exist to make chaos orbs (and other currency, such as chance orbs, alchemy orbs, etc) right? Very easy to use recipes. Sure, finding the jewelry to make it work is the limiting factor, but it's really not that bad, especially with the rogue exiles if you have decent magic find. Issues like knowledge of those recipes and other actual game mechanics are far, far more pressing than anything you've said to help new players along.

ok, yet how many players have access to that kind of information? usually it's those dedicated enough to do some research and learn everything there is to know about the game that have the benefit of that knowledge. maybe advertising that kind of thing would help, but it would make the game much funner if good items were more common, how can you deny that?

i appreciate your arguments, but rather than making things black and white, you're right / i'm wrong, i suggest you try considering some alternative options.

"

PandaBears wrote:

i appreciate your arguments, but rather than making things black and white, you're right / i'm wrong, i suggest you try considering some alternative options.

.....

There are no words.

"

VirtuousSphinx wrote:

"

PandaBears wrote:

i appreciate your arguments, but rather than making things black and white, you're right / i'm wrong, i suggest you try considering some alternative options.

.....

There are no words.

you should elaborate if you want to be understood.