Spell Echo

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Vipermagi wrote:

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Lauicus wrote:

I don't agree. Yes, it is powerful, and one could call it mandatory for spell-casters, but the same goes for Multistrike for melee-attackers.

Multistrike was also the stupidest thing they added to the game. The fact Spell Echo, which as mentioned is damn near mandatory by virtue of repeating the same mistake, had to be released to close the gap is not exactly a good sign.

+1

but - fun fact - only one build that i made uses multistrike, others - after calculations - ended up more effective without it. this is mostly because i do not like scaling my dps with attack speed (because in current poe meta it is THE way to do it if one is a copycat) and without high base aspd to apply 'more' multiplier from multistrike it is not that that great

and for some cases - like stuns and freezes (GS / GH) it is not the dps that matters but single hits etc

however - i fully agree that 'balancing' selfcasting with spell echo is as clumsy as treating bruise with amputation

Well Spell-Echo is basically the only way to make non-projectile-spells good. People seem to forget that LMP equals 110% more damage, which was already mandatory for projectile-based spells. I guess buffing arc and introducing Spell-Echo was a bit over the top, since Arc always suffered from being hard to support, but with Spell-Echo and Empower this problem is gone.

Also people should not forget that similar to Multistrike Spell-Echo is a lot better with a lot of increased cast-speed. With no cast-speed at all its only a bit better than faster casting (and feels really clunky since you have to do both casts, which is annoying for very slow spells).

But considering that physical attacks already have a bunch of multiplicative supports like Melee Physical, Added Fire and Multistrike it was clear that spells needed them too. Its also clear that those are most likely mandatory. It is very rare that a physical attacker does not use Melee Physical or Multistrike. The same however was true for LMP on Spells that support it, which was mainly Fireball and Freezing Pulse.

The only way to restrict them is to make certain that they can't be used with everything, like LMP. Because if they do work with everything they are used. If you have a 2l people might take Melee-Physical over Multistrike (or the other way around), but once you go towards 5 or even 6l it is clear that you will see some gems in every build, because they work multiplicative and provide a far greater boost. Faster Attacks/Casting gets worse the more Atk/Castspeed you get so its very obvious that it might be dropped in favor for one of the multiplicative gems.

I have a question that and I would like a GGG dev answer me.

If Spell Echo is intended to work with spells casted by yourself (by "your own HANDS"), and that's why it doesn't work with spells casted with Spell Totem... then why Spell Echo is working with spells casted by Spectres??? :/

Because they too are hard casting and are supported with spell echo.
I expect someone will wonder why totems arent supported still, or traps or mines...

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Vipermagi wrote:

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Lauicus wrote:

I don't agree. Yes, it is powerful, and one could call it mandatory for spell-casters, but the same goes for Multistrike for melee-attackers.

Multistrike was also the stupidest thing they added to the game. The fact Spell Echo, which as mentioned is damn near mandatory by virtue of repeating the same mistake, had to be released to close the gap is not exactly a good sign.

Yep. The DPS game is really focused on spamming as many strikes/projectiles/blasts per second as you can, which means that things like target selection go out of the window (because you're hitting the entire room at once anyway). This was always true to some extent, but it seems to have got progressively worse as the game has developed. As far as I can tell, the only way to go against the grain in a productive way is to make a damage over time build. In the case of spells, this basically means an ignite build - but then you're not going to do much better in terms of damage per hit than Flameblast, which comes with massive AoE as standard and rewards cast speed bonuses even more than a typical spell does.

Why only 10 less DMG on a gem this good? It replaced faster cast rate support free with literally no downside. Its faster,stronger and takes already critical heavy casters to a wwhole new level of dumb in PvP. Pvm this gem is your go to as well, without debate. This gem should be doing in the neighborhood of 20-30% less damage. No caster worth a crap is non critical, that's a fact. This gem having more DMG reduction will still push little joey iron will caster with low to no crit chance/multiplier through the game easily. While toning down the critical heavy casters that paired with the better tree of 1.2 didn't need this gem in its current state. Consider a 20% reduction at the very least.

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MullaXul wrote:

Why only 10 less DMG on a gem this good? It replaced faster cast rate support free with literally no downside. Its faster,stronger and takes already critical heavy casters to a wwhole new level of dumb in PvP. Pvm this gem is your go to as well, without debate. This gem should be doing in the neighborhood of 20-30% less damage. No caster worth a crap is non critical, that's a fact. This gem having more DMG reduction will still push little joey iron will caster with low to no crit chance/multiplier through the game easily. While toning down the critical heavy casters that paired with the better tree of 1.2 didn't need this gem in its current state. Consider a 20% reduction at the very least.

I disagree. I think this gem is fine, especially when you start factoring in people can have 75% Spell Block + 80% Capped Resist easily in PVP.

You think echo is strong because in PvP you are using a 2H and not a shield. Therefor you have no block.

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Vipermagi wrote:

Of course, Less doesn't stack additively. Spell Echo + LMP = 100 * 0.9 * 0.7 = 63%, or "37% Less" total. Bumping SE to 20% Less = 100 * 0.8 * 0.7 = 56%


10% Less is absolutely nothing, but Spell Echo needs to be comparable to Multistrike, which also has a penalty that does not nearly match the power boost.

So with common spell gem supports (LMP,Chain,Fork,GMP) Echo is currently on the same page with Multistrike at -36% less damage. Multistrike gets 3 hits, where Spell Echo however only gets two hits. :(

I just tested molten shell + spell echo with a friend in pvp, here are the results:

1.: fiery shield animation was doubled
2.: additional armor wasn't doubled
3.: damage needed to break the shield wasn't doubled
4.: damage dealt by the exploding shield wasn't doubled


I think points 1-3 are all right, but imho explosion damage should be doubled at least.
It wouldn't be that much of a buff to molten shell to be overpowered.