GGGs reasoning on not making a SFL?

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

The overall benefit of trading between players is exactly the same as the benefit of trading between a single player's characters.

Definitely not. Its becoming even harder to take you seriously Scrotie, but I'll try. It honestly feels like you are so desperate to argue whatever agenda you have that you will just say anything without really thinking it through. Or maybe you are, who knows.

"

1. The benefit of getting some value out of something they're not built to use; for example, a caster trading away a Multistrike to a melee character gets much more than value than actually using the Multistrike on that caster. This is a benefit which is exactly equal between the two forms of trading; trading between players and within players, it doesn't matter, same benefit.

You contradicted yourself in that paragraph. You said that its better to be able to trade away a gem you don't need for currency versus keeping the gem yourself. Then you go on to say that those two forms of trading are equal? Uh no they aren't.

"

2. The benefit of flipping. This is essentially a SFL myth, because for each trader getting more than market value for the trade, there is a trader getting less than market value for the trade. I understand that the flipping benefit for some players is great, even astronomical, but they only get that wealth by out-trading (and, in some cases, scamming) other players; it's a PvP, zero-sum situation. For each flipping victor, there is a flipping victim. The "flipping" benefit of all players combined is zero.

This might just be the silliest thing I have ever seen you type. Your actually trying to say that flipping isn't over powered because SOME players don't utilize it correctly. Wow.

Anyway it doesn't take a genius to see how wrong you are because as the other poster already pointed out....if your only using what you find on your characters then you are limited completely by what YOU find on those characters. If your trading then even if you aren't flipping you still have access to everything other players find and want to trade. That is much much much better than simply swapping your gear between characters. They aren't even remotely the same. But the overarching point here is that in a SFL YOU get to enjoy finding and crafting everything YOURSELF, thats the point here. Trading just isn't as much fun anymore and people want to experience the game in a different way. How is that so hard to understand?

"

iamstryker wrote:

"

1. The benefit of getting some value out of something they're not built to use; for example, a caster trading away a Multistrike to a melee character gets much more than value than actually using the Multistrike on that caster. This is a benefit which is exactly equal between the two forms of trading; trading between players and within players, it doesn't matter, same benefit.

You contradicted yourself in that paragraph. You said that its better to be able to trade away a gem you don't need for currency versus keeping the gem yourself. Then you go on to say that those two forms of trading are equal? Uh no they aren't.

That's not what I said; I never compared the value of the Multistrike to currency. I compared the value of a Multistrike used by a melee character, to the value of Multistrike to a caster (actually, since CoC exists, I should say: to an archer).

"

iamstryker wrote:

"

2. The benefit of flipping. This is essentially a SFL myth, because for each trader getting more than market value for the trade, there is a trader getting less than market value for the trade. I understand that the flipping benefit for some players is great, even astronomical, but they only get that wealth by out-trading (and, in some cases, scamming) other players; it's a PvP, zero-sum situation. For each flipping victor, there is a flipping victim. The "flipping" benefit of all players combined is zero.

This might just be the silliest thing I have ever seen you type. Your actually trying to say that flipping isn't over powered because SOME players don't utilize it correctly. Wow.

Your response is devoid of content because you cannot provide a rational argument which contradicts my point.

"

iamstryker wrote:

Anyway it doesn't take a genius to see how wrong you are because as the other poster already pointed out....if your only using what you find on your characters then you are limited completely by what YOU find on those characters. If your trading then even if you aren't flipping you still have access to everything other players find and want to trade. That is much much much better than simply swapping your gear between characters. They aren't even remotely the same.

All it is is a larger pool of rerolls. Instead of rerolling yourself, you swap items with others who have rolled those characters. Also, this is filed under point #1 (rerolling), not point #2 (flipping). There is absolutely no valid counter for the flipping argument; you can stop trying.

If my position has a weak spot, it is that, obviously, there are many many more characters you haven't rolled than characters you have. As I said, the reroll pool grows bigger with interaccount trades. However, it should be noted that, even if you argue the difference in scale is significant, you can't really argue that they aren't remotely the same. They are; the only difference is the number of characters involved. Given infinite time to reroll, the difference would fade into obscurity. And I am assuming an infinite time to reroll.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

Your response is devoid of content because you cannot provide a rational argument which contradicts my point.

Your point is so blatantly silly I don't really feel the need to argue against it, but oh well here we go. It doesn't matter how many people trade or flip or whatever. If flipping is inherently more powerful than playing the game then the SFL argument stands.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

All it is is a larger pool of rerolls. Instead of rerolling yourself, you swap items with others who have rolled those characters.

And this nullifies my point how? How is it ANY similar to compare thousands of peoples stash items to one person playing maybe 1-10 characters. That's ridiculous. If I need a very specific amulet in a SFL I have to farm for it or craft for it and pray to get the rolls. In the trading leagues I search directly for it and simply trade currency to the person who has it.

"

There is absolutely no valid counter for the flipping argument; you can stop trying.

Call me when you have a valid argument to start with.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

If my position has a weak spot, it is that, obviously, there are many many more characters you haven't rolled than characters you have. As I said, the reroll pool grows bigger with interaccount trades. However, it should be noted that, even if you argue the difference in scale is significant, you can't really argue that they aren't remotely the same. They are; the only difference is the number of characters involved. Given infinite time to reroll, the difference would fade into obscurity. And I am assuming an infinite time to reroll.

lol. Ok so your argument makes sense IF a player has infinite time to reroll. LOL

I'm not sure how infinite time in a game with RNG drops somehow is "never going to have close the pool of resources" as a currently finite pool of resources. It must be one of those asymptote things that applies only after a person has made multiple characters.

No matter who is right in which detail, it does not make much sense to argue with the self found fascists gang.

The ridiculous fact about all this SFL stuff is, that it aroused again with D3 RoS implementing self found, but now most players leave D3 exactly for this reason again. Because it makes no sense for an arpg!




I have proven several times why benefits for players in the myth called SFL do barely exist. Then intelligent guys like stryker come and tell me my facts are no facts, and so on.

They do not factor time in. They think a SFL will always be the great self found experience that it would probably be the first 2-4 weeks (which any new league is, no matter if self found or not).

They can not imagine, that everything in a SFL will be exactly the same as it is now after a certain amount of time has passed. This is crafting/grinding is useless as finding upgrades will be close to impossible. Basically the same that you have now. But now you can still sell medium tier items for 1 exalt instead of vendoring them for chaos recipe.


After all, implementing a SFL would require the whole game being replaced by it. 4 month/perm hc/sc leagues would have to be implemented to provide the good SFL feeling for the guys who wanna start over every here and then. Droprates would have to be adjusted to account for reduced other options, what definitely to a certain degree would invalidate normal leagues.

If new players start the game and could choose between a league with good and one with bad drops, what would their choice be? If droprates stayed the same, a SFL would be even a bad experience for players, as they would start struggling with progress even earlier than they do now, and then probably leave instead of entering the hated trading leagues to start all over again and adapt.


All this what is required to make SFL a legit experience, would in fact destroy the game as it is now, with clustering up player base more and more and increasing the exponential dieing process of the game.

But go on styker, tell me my arguments are none. Idc because I am not here to teach you about stuff and learn you to look 2 meters into the future.

We don't have a SFL for exactly these reasons as GGG/Chris do know about these facts very well. The whole SFL concept is not fitting on PoE and it was never intended to do so. Deal with it!

Your assumptions don't bother me LSN. Because that's what they are, assumptions.

I have noticed this. You only want to see and understand what you like to. But the question of the thread is what I more or less answered with this.


p.s: And telling me that it is an assumption, that
1. SFL would have to go with full sc/hc perm/4month leagues,
2. would have to give better drop rates to account for lesser other oportunities,
3. therefore would bias the choice for new players to rather go with SFL,
4. and therefore again clustering up the playerbase even more than it is now,

should be a banable insult to normal lower intelligence level. :D, srsly


And just to tell you this again. These are no assumptions. You guys just don't like to get specific on it. It is a prediction, a forecast. And mankind is used to do this kind of stuff for quite some time already in economic and other matters. It is a simple connection of causalities that everybody will understand that did not choose to not want to understand it.


GGG would be much better off to care on the actual game and improve it. But who am I to tell them things that they already know.

"

LSN wrote:

I have noticed this. You only want to see and understand what you like to. But the question of the thread is what I more or less answered with this.


p.s: And telling me that it is an assumption, that
1. SFL would have to go with full sc/hc perm/4month leagues,
2. would have to give better drop rates to account for lesser other oportunities,
3. therefore would bias the choice for new players to rather go with SFL,
4. and therefore again clustering up the playerbase even more than it is now,

should be a banable insult to normal lower intelligence level. :D


srsly

-but 2,3,4 are not what they("SFLer") want

-for 1, i think ggg can at least make a 4 month SFL(or some kind of event) just for testing.
-raise $ for GGG to test SFL? to solve some server issues?

"

Tom1989 wrote:

"

LSN wrote:

I have noticed this. You only want to see and understand what you like to. But the question of the thread is what I more or less answered with this.


p.s: And telling me that it is an assumption, that
1. SFL would have to go with full sc/hc perm/4month leagues,
2. would have to give better drop rates to account for lesser other oportunities,
3. therefore would bias the choice for new players to rather go with SFL,
4. and therefore again clustering up the playerbase even more than it is now,

should be a banable insult to normal lower intelligence level. :D


srsly

-but 2,3,4 are not what they("SFLer") want

-for 1, i think ggg at least make a 4 month(or some kind of event) just to test the SFL first.
-raise $ for GGG to test SFL? to solve some server issues?

Well here again I explain the obvious:

PoE has consistency within its public leagues. To keep this consistency, it is at least required to go sc/hc when doing a SFL. But then the factor time comes in (what I explained already a dozen of times). In one year from now (much earlier actually) ppl claim SFL has become stale and they want a fresh start. Therefore GGG would only implement a SFL (thats not only for testing) within this existing consistency of leagues, because it makes sense when using common sense. Why would SFL be only for sc players or only for permanent league players at all?

2. GGG wants their game to be a good experience (common sense). A SFL without adjusted droprates would simply not be this (experience in game). Period.

3. - 4. automatically follows (common sense).