GGGs reasoning on not making a SFL?

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

<...> Just stroll into that difficult content undergeared, weak, likely to die. <...>

That's kinda how I like to play, actually.
One can do it right up to end game, then what you seek is gated. From then on it's farming less-than-difficult content to buy a piece of the difficult pie. Let's face it, we farm gold to buy content access, or rather to buy tickets to see if we win content access.

It doesn't help that the low content will over-gear you for that challenging content before you even see it. There goes the 'stroll into that difficult content' play.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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Jojas wrote:

There is no doubt you can play solo self-found and just breeze through the content. Just keep farming act-bosses and eventually you will get all you need: Gear for your char and orbs for maps (via the recipes). And if you run out of orbs for your maps (or maps), just farm actbosses again, rinse, repeat.

The problem - and I seriously don't understand why you and so many are so eager not to see it - is not that this is too "challenging", the problem is that it is too tedious. The problem is the RMT, the flippers and the scumbags that come along with unlimited trade. The problem is the dependency on trade if you want to have a non-tedious experience.

There is seriously nothing "casual" about it. Why is that so hard to understand?

There is something casual about it. Allow me to explain.

The real reason you guys are against trading is that it, too, is tedious. Setting up a shop, looking up items on xyz, all that stuff is a form of tedium. It's a very rare situation where the prospect of a new item is exciting enough to give that tedium an enjoyable feeling of anticipation; generally, only build-enabling uniques can pull it off.

So if you want to gear up, you're in for some tedium no matter how you go. You can do the whole farming Merc bosses thing, or you can trade. Tedium either way...

...unless you go all Courage Wolf on the situation. Fuck upgrading. Fuck tedium. Just stroll into that difficult content undergeared, weak, likely to die. And live anyway. Because you're badass.

That's hardcore. Continually pressing forward to avoid tedium, completely bypassing the easyfarm-or-trade dichotomy. Making level 87 that way feels like an accomplishment.

So no, I'm not pro-tedium. I don't know, and can't imagine, anyone who is. However, my response to tedium is to accept the game's difficulty and put myself in some truly challenging situations. I don't mind if my character dies, if it will alleviate some boredom. You apparently do.

You seem to know why we hate trading more than we ourselves do apparently. Sigh...
Well, here's my reason and *gasp* it has nothing to do with what you said: I like gearing myself up, I feel more accomplished that way. I killed a bunch of stuff that dropped gear x or orb y which I used to craft gear z. I just like it more that way call it a quirk call it whatever you will.

Now about your courage wolf idea, I would agree and I like doing stuff like that... in games that actually permit you to do it, namely souls series d2 etc. where gear was a plus, not a necessity. Unfortunately in PoE almost everything in the skill tree is % based, which means your char is a walking turd if he doesn't have any gear. Also the skill factor is minimal in combat so yeah, no overcoming that gear deficit by being more "skilled". Bottom line: without gear you're fucked, no two ways about it.

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iamstryker wrote:

I don't agree with your analogy. Game developers have much more reason to not only listen to the problems of the game but how they can be potentially fixed as opposed to a doctor taking the advice of a patient. A gamer is going to have more of an idea of what they find to be fun as opposed to a patient knowing how to treat a disease. I think more people are having fun with the game now as opposed to when loot was FFA, good thing people asked for what they wanted.

People don't even know what kind of coffee they like.

Well, that's not entirely true. They do know; they show how they know with their spending dollars. They buy lots of weak coffee and drown it in a lot of milk and sugar. However, they say they like a rich, dark roast, whenever they are surveyed, because it sounds better. Experts in the survey field call this "social desirability bias."

Everybody lies. The only variable is what they lie about, and the question is why they lie about it. Answering that question reveals a truth — sometimes, a useful one.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

The real reason you guys are against trading is that it, too, is tedious. Setting up a shop, looking up items on xyz, all that stuff is a form of tedium.

Really, Scrotie?

So when I'm tediously hitting the Dominus or Pietits pinatas. When I'm tediously running low maps. When I'm tediously farming an alch before I can even roll a map, that I'll probably have to tediously farm chaos for before I can run. When I'm tediously saving armour scraps and quality whites. When I'm tediously not using an optimal build because I need to reassign a few points, but regret=alch. When I'm tediously saving certain whites, blues and rares because when a unique drops = chance orbs = scours = regret = alch. When I'm tediously alt/auging low maps for hordes or commanders to vendor for 6-8 shards.

When I'm doing all this tedium, before even running a map, and never even thinking of any crafting, and a friend in my stream chat says "are you sure you don't want to let that legacy shav's in your stash go for x000 alchs?", I say no because it would be tedious?

Really?

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Temper wrote:

It doesn't matter what options will be available for custom leagues.The point is,they will split the player base.

Why would splitting the player base be a bad thing? Most people already play alone, especially with carto boxes making it much easier to sustain a high map pool.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

The real reason you guys are against trading...

First of all: Not many people are AGAINST trading. You may have it, we don't care.

Second, tell me, what is it that you put in your food each day, to be able to tell what everyone wants - when they write something completely different? You may decapitate that high horse of yours, because you are way off.

The reason is NOT that it's tedious. The reason is that a lot of people sees trading as a supplement - used to make the progression faster. In PoE it's not a supplement, but the ONLY way. You HAVE to do it to progress from a certain point.

You will never be able to FIND end game gear. Chris doesn't want it. And you will never be able to find enough eternals, exalted, devines or mirrors to be able to craft end game weapons. You HAVE to trade for them.

So, I don't hate trading. I have nothing against trading. You may trade all you want - for as long as you want. Flip the hell of the marked, I don't care. I just feel it's a stupid game design when there's no other way, besides 5000 hour game play, trading or RMT.

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empressaria wrote:

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Temper wrote:

It doesn't matter what options will be available for custom leagues.The point is,they will split the player base.

Why would splitting the player base be a bad thing? Most people already play alone, especially with carto boxes making it much easier to sustain a high map pool.

I'm also baffled by that splitting argument.
Yet nobody mentioned increase of the player base.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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iamstryker wrote:

I don't agree with your analogy. Game developers have much more reason to not only listen to the problems of the game but how they can be potentially fixed as opposed to a doctor taking the advice of a patient. A gamer is going to have more of an idea of what they find to be fun as opposed to a patient knowing how to treat a disease. I think more people are having fun with the game now as opposed to when loot was FFA, good thing people asked for what they wanted.

People don't even know what kind of coffee they like.

Well, that's not entirely true. They do know; they show how they know with their spending dollars. They buy lots of weak coffee and drown it in a lot of milk and sugar. However, they say they like a rich, dark roast, whenever they are surveyed, because it sounds better. Experts in the survey field call this "social desirability bias."

Everybody lies. The only variable is what they lie about, and the question is why they lie about it. Answering that question reveals a truth — sometimes, a useful one.

Well that's fucking profound. lol

Since we're talking about coffee.

I like coffee.

What kind of coffee do I like ?

Coffee that I think tastes good ... for someone like me that's practically any coffee bar one with a swirl of cow shit in it.What coffee others drink and enjoy is their own business.

Everybody lies ? heh maybe everbody you know.....

=)

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empressaria wrote:

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Temper wrote:

It doesn't matter what options will be available for custom leagues.The point is,they will split the player base.

Why would splitting the player base be a bad thing? Most people already play alone, especially with carto boxes making it much easier to sustain a high map pool.

Which was exactly my point. =P

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Spoiler

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Jojas wrote:

There is no doubt you can play solo self-found and just breeze through the content. Just keep farming act-bosses and eventually you will get all you need: Gear for your char and orbs for maps (via the recipes). And if you run out of orbs for your maps (or maps), just farm actbosses again, rinse, repeat.

The problem - and I seriously don't understand why you and so many are so eager not to see it - is not that this is too "challenging", the problem is that it is too tedious. The problem is the RMT, the flippers and the scumbags that come along with unlimited trade. The problem is the dependency on trade if you want to have a non-tedious experience.

There is seriously nothing "casual" about it. Why is that so hard to understand?

There is something casual about it. Allow me to explain.

The real reason you guys are against trading is that it, too, is tedious. Setting up a shop, looking up items on xyz, all that stuff is a form of tedium. It's a very rare situation where the prospect of a new item is exciting enough to give that tedium an enjoyable feeling of anticipation; generally, only build-enabling uniques can pull it off.

So if you want to gear up, you're in for some tedium no matter how you go. You can do the whole farming Merc bosses thing, or you can trade. Tedium either way...

...unless you go all Courage Wolf on the situation. Fuck upgrading. Fuck tedium. Just stroll into that difficult content undergeared, weak, likely to die. And live anyway. Because you're badass.

That's hardcore. Continually pressing forward to avoid tedium, completely bypassing the easyfarm-or-trade dichotomy. Making level 87 that way feels like an accomplishment.

So no, I'm not pro-tedium. I don't know, and can't imagine, anyone who is. However, my response to tedium is to accept the game's difficulty and put myself in some truly challenging situations. I don't mind if my character dies, if it will alleviate some boredom. You apparently do.

Just like you I enjoy challenging situations, but as it is, not the defense is the problem, a satisfying killspeed is. A lack of defense can almost always be made up for by being alert and having a good movement skill. A lack of dps can be made up for by nothing.
If you can find enjoyment in a game in which you see that it takes longer and longer for you to kill stuff while you try to progress, good for you. So much more if (and it really can be a big "if") you finally get a good weapon and reap the rewards of the previous tedium.
But if that is so, I really think you are an exception. Not just as a gamer, but even among the "hardcore" crowd here that is supposedly so afraid of PoE getting more casual.

Also, I think you are mistaken when you think people who want an SFL (or better drops) are afraid of the tedium of trade. For one, trading as it is now, - unless you only trade via the trade chat - breaks the fourth wall. Some people don't like that. I don't, at all.
Then, trading as dominant as it is now, turns the game into a game of currency acquisition. Every drop that is not an upgrade for you is only being seen as the number of orbs you can get for it. Again, some people don't like that.
Then there is the matter of how you approach the game. If you have a specific build in mind and just care for being able to play that build, trading is the way to go.
But there is a different approach as well: Starting with a generic run-of-the-mill build and discover build possibilities by what drops for you.
PoE greatly favours the former because the latter involves such a tremendous amount of grind that only a few people really do that. And nobody who plays it rather seriously would try that in the 4-month leagues.

As far as what I have read here, this is what advocates of SFL or better drops or both are all about. It's not about dumbing PoE down, not about instant gratification and BiS items, but about PoE being possibly a really great game, but the enormous dependency on trade simply ruining it.