Cast when Stunned

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Vipermagi wrote:

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Xymordos wrote:

After the 250ms change, would one stun still proc multiple skills on separate CWS links?

Cooldowns are global. All Skills linked to Cast when Stunned are in the same cooldown group.

This doesn't explain anything, at least to me.

If I have 2 CwS groups, with 3 splls linked to each, does that mean that when char is stunned:

a) Maximum of one spell will activate, of all CwS groups, the others will not even if they succeed the chance check
b) All spells linked to both CwS goups, which succeed the chance check, will activate at once
c) Only spells of one CwS group will have a chance to activate, the spells on other group will not activate at all
d) Only one spell per each CwS group will activate, other spells in each group will be blocked for cooldown

The cooldown affects ALL CWS groups. There is a CHANCE multiple spells will proc each time you get stunned, if they all pass the chance check. So sometimes multiple spells proc, sometimes just 1, sometimes even none (though that's very rare after it's levelled up). After that, for 250ms, NO CwS groups will proc at all. After 250ms, you again have a chance to proc 1 or multiple spells as usual.

So the answer is option B with the addendum that after they activate, for 250ms, none of them can activate.

Let's say I have this setup in a 4L item

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CWS - RF
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Arc - Arc

And RF and 1 of the Arc spells activate. Will Arc benefit from the spell dmg from RF if they are cast at the same time ?

I have done some research to get a better understanding of this gem, I will share my conclusions in the hope they will help others.

Endgame this gem isn’t useful if you’re life based. In a lvl 77 map the average monster damage is 756, according to http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Monster_Damage. With all resistances at zero and 3000 life (which is a dead wish if you’re life based, 4 hits and you’re gone), the chance of getting stunned is only 50%. Which is the same as using Energy Shield with a maximum of 1500 life, which will give u way more survivability. (1500 life has a 100% chance to stun with 756 damage. Since ES has a 50% chance to avoid being stunned while greater than zero, it has the same chance of getting stunned as 3000 life.) With a global cooldown of 250ms, multiple copies of CwS have no use, since only one will be activated at the same time. With the 250ms cooldown, only four CwS can occur per second. It is however highly doubtful, since all stuns would have to line up perfectly. The cooldown isn't seen as a duration, so reduced duration won't work. With the maximum chance of 51% to cast linked spells, the chances of a spell cast is even reduced more. If u somehow achieve four stuns in a second, a linked spell will on average only occur twice. Which, as indicated earlier, is highly unlikely. This is only an average, so it doesn’t mean u will never cast a spell more than twice. But u should also take in account, there will be times where u won’t cast a spell for several seconds.

So can I make an offensive build with CwS? The most effective build would be a low life or CI build, with a lot of energy shield and block nodes. A shield can be used to reduce the incoming damage while maintaining your stun chances. Since stun is still calculated on a successful block to determine if it needs to play a block animation, it will still cast CwS. High stun and block recovery nodes are therefore advisable, so u will recover more quickly which will increase your chances to escape. I would suggest shield charge or lightning warp for escaping. For spells, I would suggest AoE spells. Since u will be surrounded by enemies , projectiles won’t hit all of them. U could link two similar or two copies of one spell (to increase the chance of casting) on CwS linked with support gems to increase damage. The other possibility is to use no support gems but only spells, so u will cast multiple lower damage spells at the same time. Some form of life leech would be advisable as well. U probably won’t generate ES while standing in a group of enemies. Even though u could block all of the incoming attacks, most of the time some of them will hit, which cancel the regeneration or restart the cooldown.

So what about defensive usage? Personally I would prefer CwDT, so I can use Unwavering Stance and don’t need low life and defenses to make CwS somewhat effective. It is odd to sacrifice on defenses so u can use CwS for your defenses, with the disadvantage of still being stunned and the high damage of the initial hit.

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SpiritNrJ wrote:

So what about defensive usage? Personally I would prefer CwDT, so I can use Unwavering Stance and don’t need low life and defenses to make CwS somewhat effective. It is odd to sacrifice on defenses so u can use CwS for your defenses, with the disadvantage of still being stunned and the high damage of the initial hit.

Vaal IC, or just normal IC. It will prevent you from getting stunlocked if you end up on the receiving end of very hard hitting enemies (though IC won't work against non-physical stunning).

CwS is the ultimate OHSH!T proc. It's ideal if you have a free slot combo and can think of something you'd like to have instantly against a dangerous enemy (whereas CwDT is more for something you want always up).

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Autocthon wrote:

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SpiritNrJ wrote:

So what about defensive usage? Personally I would prefer CwDT, so I can use Unwavering Stance and don’t need low life and defenses to make CwS somewhat effective. It is odd to sacrifice on defenses so u can use CwS for your defenses, with the disadvantage of still being stunned and the high damage of the initial hit.

Vaal IC, or just normal IC. It will prevent you from getting stunlocked if you end up on the receiving end of very hard hitting enemies (though IC won't work against non-physical stunning).

CwS is the ultimate OHSH!T proc. It's ideal if you have a free slot combo and can think of something you'd like to have instantly against a dangerous enemy (whereas CwDT is more for something you want always up).

Sure this could be useful for some builds. The same thing however could be done with CWDT in combination with Unwavering Stance or higher life / defenses, so u can’t be stunned at all.

For example, a lvl 9 CwDT needs 1090 damage with a 100% chance of activate supported spells. A lvl 9 CwDT reduces the duration of IC, it will still give u enough time to recover, pop a granite/jade/elemantal resistance flask or escape. With only 3 endurance charges u still have 1.8 seconds to react, which can be increased with more endurance charges, increased skill duration passives or the increased duration support gem.

Now with the same damage, but with a lvl 19 CwS. With a low life / ES build or a life build, the chance of getting stunned is 50% or lower. With a life based build, u even have to take into account that there will be scenarios where u have ES left thanks to ES on gear or a party members with discipline. The ES will reduce the chance of getting stunned with 50%. Then there is the lvl 19 CwS, which reduces the chance of activating supported skills by another 50%. So u only have a 25% or 12.5% chance of activating supported spells on hit. So in the best case scenario it will only activate once every four hits. Next to that, CwS doesn’t even work if your base chance of getting stunned is below 30%.

So if u have low defences or u don’t want IC to be activated by lower mobs or use a low lvl CwDT, u could use CwS. (A lower CwDT will probably be activated first (reaches the amount of damage required to be triggered faster), which activates the global cooldown what results in the higher CwDT being ignored. I haven’t tested or looked up the last part, so don’t know it for sure. If anybody can confirm this, it will be appreciated.) But overall, I still prefer CwDT. It can be used in different situations, but all situations have a drawback. Which is another reason why I like it more, it enhances build diversity and requires some theocrafting instead of leveling it to the max.

Experience suggests that stuns prevented by ES can still proc CwS. My understanding is that CwS is procced by incoming damage that would stun, even if it doesn't actually stun; Unwavering Stance being the exception, I think, since it removes the stun check altogether.

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SinisterDexter wrote:

Experience suggests that stuns prevented by ES can still proc CwS. My understanding is that CwS is procced by incoming damage that would stun, even if it doesn't actually stun; Unwavering Stance being the exception, I think, since it removes the stun check altogether.

U might have a point there, since it is calculated independent and is states as an avoidance. This would mean a big improvement to the low chances. However, when I tried CwS, it didn’t look like it would trigger without a stun as far I can remember. And after watching the following video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ErNOn7-l2o, I don’t think it is the case. The spells are only cast when the character is actually stunned.

So does this gem not have any sort of entropy on the chance to activate? I had it linked to cold snap and it saved my ass a few times, was pretty happy with it and looking forward to grabbing a prolif for it from the cruel library quest. But working my way through the barracks I wondered into a blackguard mosh pit. My Vaal stormcall recharged itself twice in the fight there was seriously 40+ of them. I was really sad that this thing didn't go off once, even at the end as I got chain charged to death.

It's pRNG, no entropy. Like every other % chance in the game except evasion.