As a minion player, I'm not looking forward to Vaal Temple going core

I loved minions in 0.1 but yeah had to stop because of the bodyblocking & respawning when out of range. Indoor maps or corridors are pretty bad for the archtype

I've said this in other threads as well, but I honestly think part of the problem is that nobody at GGG actually plays a proper minion build.

Maybe they play some hybrid where minions are secondary, or basically just background noise, but a build where minions are the main source of damage? I doubt it.

That would explain why these issues keep being left in such a bad state. Minion aggression is bad, collision is bad, and the range is pathetic.

And no, "just don't run Temple" is not a solution. Temple is part of the game. If a build archetype is effectively pushed out of that content because of bugs and broken AI, then GGG should fix the bugs and AI instead of expecting those players to avoid the content.

Just switch weapons 2 times, geez

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cptSarcazmo#7521 wrote:

Just switch weapons 2 times, geez

That workaround also requires you to find a suitable second weapon setup in the first place. In my case, that is defensive setup with a shield.

Then you still have to configure it beforehand so the second weapon set has "0" minions.

So yes, it technically works, but let's be honest - it is a hacky workaround, not an intended solution.

And it does not solve the actual minion issues. They still bodyblock each other, they still are not aggressive enough, and respawning them takes time. During that time they also stop casting and attacking, which means you lose damage just to work around broken AI/pathing.

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Jyrlep#4788 wrote:

That workaround also requires you to find a suitable second weapon setup in the first place. In my case, that is defensive setup with a shield.

Then you still have to configure it beforehand so the second weapon set has "0" minions.

So yes, it technically works, but let's be honest - it is a hacky workaround, not an intended solution.

In most cases you dont need minions on ur second setup anyway, so there's no tradeoff. Most of the time you dont have second setup so you can just equip whatever. And yes of course you need to set it up - as you would Convocate.

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And it does not solve the actual minion issues. They still bodyblock each other, they still are not aggressive enough, and respawning them takes time. During that time they also stop casting and attacking, which means you lose damage just to work around broken AI/pathing.

AI need some love and care, yes.
But when i look at bunch of zombies and skeletons I kinda wish they be flawed in some way

Of course I need my second weapon set.

Mine is a defensive setup - a defensive "weapon" plus a very defensive shield. It is not there for damage. It is there as an escape plan, with healers and tanks, and basically no offensive minions.

So yes, I do actually lose something by using the weapon-swap trick.

And even if it works sometimes, it is still a glitchy, hacky workaround. It does not fix the actual issue, which is minions bodyblocking, getting stuck, and needing awkward tricks just to function in certain layouts.

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Crikyy#1860 wrote:

Losing 90% xp every temple because minions bodyblock each other while the door shuts locking you in the room is not fun.

This goes for tight-corridor maps as well, and straight up makes melee minions so much worse than ranged. They already have to run up to mobs and don't have any ms scaling apart from 20% on the tree.

Make minions have 0 collision (probably not possible) or give us poe1's Convocation so we can deal with the minions' shitty AI.

As a minion player, I would recommend to not play content which disables your characters or is a huge problem for it.

Like warriors and mace archetypes aren't supposed to play abyss, vaal temple and or breach, since they neither have the speed to fight those effectively but also lack the damage to be as effective as others.

Therefore just ignore it and do other mechanics? Till they may get a fix for it.

Any given build could, should, and will have upsides and downsides, which in turn make it better or worse for given content, if there's any variety to be had.

For a minion build in any game, the most inherent downside is the need for the minions to actually fit in the gameplay map.
There's little to nothing that can be done about that.
I'm just happy the game lacks friendly fire that would make your minions just hit each other instead of enemies.

Some builds are going to be better/worse at Sek trials.
Some will be better/worse at Chaos trials.
Some are better at bossing, some are better at Delirium fog rushing.
Some prefer open areas, some are thrilled to see narrow corridors and doorways.

Temple is part of the game, yes.
Trade is part of the game too.
SSF is only offered so people can't complain it isn't, the game is not actually designed for it.
"Just don't play temple" is exactly how minion builds are supposed to handle temple.

A build that is better at X and worse at Y is supposed to run X, ignore Y, then trade, selling items from X & buying items from Y.
Trading with builds that are better at Y and worse at X, who ran Y and ignored X.

The main downside of ssf, if you're a one character type of player, is the resulting pressure to play content that character isn't meant to play, instead of focusing on what that character is made for.
But in truth, even in ssf you're still supposed to trade instead of forcing yourself through unmatched content, it's just that you're supposed to trade with yourself, by having multiple characters.

All this having been said, it is very important that every type of build actually has content that it's better at.
So I'm ok with minion builds being worse in claustrophobic areas like Temple, but I still want minion builds to be buffed.
Because if there's content an archetype is the worst at, there should be other content that archetype is the best at.

Let minion builds be the worst at stuff like temple but make sure they're ideal for something else in the game, then minion players can run that and trade with the ricochet builds running temple.

I don't think that comparison really works.

Minions are not some tiny niche build that can just shrug and skip a random bad map. They are a core part of Witch, now also Shaman, and probably other classes or ascendancies going forward.

Saying "just avoid Temple" is not the same as saying "skip a few bad Atlas maps". I already do that on minions. I have a list of layouts I avoid because they are awful for the build.

This is different. Temple is not just one awkward map. It was the main content of the league, and now it is going core. Telling an entire archetype to avoid the whole league mechanic because its AI and pathing cannot handle doors is not good design.

The issue is also not that minions are naturally a bit worse in narrow areas. That would be fine. The issue is that they bodyblock each other, get stuck, fail to follow properly, and sometimes need weapon-swap tricks just to function. That is not a build weakness. That is broken behavior.

This could be solved with something like a "call minions to me" command, or an attack-move command, or better phasing/pathing around doors and corridors.

And yes, I still think this keeps happening because GGG does not seem to have anyone seriously playing proper minion builds as a main archetype. If they did, these problems would be obvious very quickly.

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vexorian#9572 wrote:

Sekhemas is super easy with minions and gives 100 divs avg per run

LOL.

I have such a fond memory of losing a Sekhemas run, from full honour, one room from the end because my minions were trapped behind a doorway and couldn't target the mobs to close the portals to stop infinite spawning adds. I didn't know about the convocation "trick" at the time and spent all of my honour rolling around trying to get my minions unstuck. And this was with ranged minions.

Perfectly balanced, super easy indeed.