Why I like the rune system and don’t want the crafting bench
" " It wasn't the point for me neither. But from what you wrote and how you felt and compared it to a massive skill tree and the experience as a new player which just gets hit by it and log off, is factually wrong. Cause you will not get that feeling like ever using a crafting bench over runes. You have at max 10 crafts the moment you can use it. You can read the recipe the moment you pick it up and can check it again in the crafting bench if you get the feeling it is useful for you. The only difference is that a crafting bench is not RNG and also not expensive, while runes at the moment are. " It's not cause you have the same value and effect for finding recipes but are not gated behind rng on using it, which literally hinders new players to even use certain runes cause they cannot know if there will be something better or and upgrade to that rune unless they use a guide which already says there will be better runes and how to get them. As already mentioned for that reason it is at best far inferior, especially since we have no possibility to re-use them. Sorry but I get the feeling that you are contradicting yourself in your own argumentation. At one side you want to argue in favour of new players and on the other hand you totally disregard the effect and the outcome of runes vs crafting bench and its accessibility or investment to that player. " Which is more as understandable and which most experienced players also will tell you, safe up currency, exchange it for higher valuable currency and use it to buy yourself new gear since the RNG is not really in your favour, mostly. You only use currency on items which are already good and if the mod you add with aug, regal or ex is bad, you stop using more of that currency cause it is otherwise a waste of currency and your time. Except for SSF for sure were you have no other use for them as the effects they offer, but in trade league it is a different story. " And again in total disregard for new players you argument in the perspective of a pro gamer or someone who only plays one character and stacks these runes cause they don't have use for them... but still loot them. Also disregarding the fact that a new player will not have a stash for them in which you can stack them to 5000 each. Let's keep being realistic, where do you have that in the campaign? Let alone playing more as one character since it is highly likely that people would maybe want to try different things if they not just follow a build guide which again tells them exactly what to do and what to get. " Storage space is definitely a relevant limiting factor. Comparing someone with the stash to stack 5000 each or someone who can only stack 10 each is a wast difference, except you again only want to talk about people in the campaign, which makes the former point of yours, sorry, kinda ridiculous. And thats another problem, that imagination of yours. You don't need storage for a none existing thing. The crafting bench doesn't need specific currency besides the currency you anyway take with you and you get far less in the campaign of the relevant currency as you do in PoE 2. You get literally no exalts in the whole campaign, maybe 1 or 2, if you are lucky. You get relevant currency which you can salvage for crafting recipes or use to actively improve your items. So please stop imagining and experience it. So we have a base in which we can actually discuss this matter without relying on fantasy and imaginations. And I don't want to say that in a antagonizing way. But it is what it is. We need more storage capabilities in PoE 2 already as we need them in PoE 1, except of other league content we already have, which PoE 2 still lacks. Like we still have no tablet tab, in PoE 1 we had scarabs which were part of the fragment tab that we now finally get, but had to store in normaly stashes and which were not stackable. Breach items, there is a stash for that already, but we still not have it in PoE 2. Yes we have more things to store, but we also have more possibilities to actually store them meaningful instead of relying on 15 quad stashes to get a hold of all the stuff we drop in PoE 2 already and the game is not even finished yet. " You but realize that this just goes around the actual point I made. If we get life nodes on the tree, I do not want to get, we would need to invest into them, which again takes away actual power of players in the end, while meaningful gear wouldn't. In PoE 1 that is fine, cause we get easily enough power to also be able to invest into defenses and life. We even have to at some point. The moment we hit act 6 in PoE 1 we need resistances asap, cause otherwise bosses will literally one shot you left and right. With act 7 we should get some way of physical mitigation otherwise it could fast lead to dying often. Yet people ignore it cause they can just rush and ignore many things. Throwing your corpse against bosses cause they don't reset life life they do in POE 2. In Poe 2 but are defenses literally dead, especially in the campaign. The only real defense we need is damage. Which is sad. We could argue that we also need some armour if we are not able to destroy a boss in time like in act 3 with viper where many people especially new players will struggle. But a bit of a challenge is not bad as much as learning mechanics is not. The power but shouldn't be life on tree, but actual ways to improve your gear and the stats on them without relying to much on RNG. Cause otherwise you are doomed to farm the same areas over and over to get either the gold or an actual useful item, with which you can overcome the boss or the challenge which many struggle up to this day. Like most new players rather quit as to farm lower areas again. Which is the balance we would need to give new players A challenge but also get them actual meaningful sources to improve themselves, instead of teaching them that actually nothing matters except of damage... which is in the current state a problem. " Which is only relevant in the endgame again, since we don't have 6 affix items in the campaign, except we buy them from other people. " You want to tell new players that they just have to grind a certain area which give you less rewards the higher your levels get, for a random rune that could or could not improve your character in the way you need it to defeat a boss? Which kind of rune is that supposed to be, cause resistance rune its not. The damage we get from one rune is not really that much of an impact to make a boss or not. Except we talkin about endgame runes we cannot drop in the campaign, which again makes me wonder, about which aspect of the game we are talking? In regards of new players and the campaign or in regard of the endgame and pro players, which rather pay for the rune instead of farming them. Except speed runners and other no lifers. Which you wanted to rule out of the discussion. " And there it is --->IF<---- but you don't and therefore the crafting bench is superior, cause it offers all these points you listed, just that you don't only add to an item, but use a mod on it, which but is not bad or limiting at all, since you can just remove the craft or exchange it for something else if required. There is literally no limitation as you want it to make up and there are also no skill tree requirements except of character levels which runes alos have. So the only valuable point from you here is that it is an additive aspect and offers literally not more FREEDOM at all. It is rather limiting in the aspect we are talking about it. Early game. And again, we are talking about NEW PLAYERS especially, which will likely have not any 6 affix items with perfect rolls... they have 3, maximum 4 modifiers on the item which are good or maybe useful. " First you gave the reason for why it never could be better, cause you never have infinite runes and second the rune system is only better if you want to insist on the effect of runes being an additional mod on items which doesn't block or replace 1 mod of a 6 mod perf item. Which again holds only IF we talk about pro gamers which a new player will most likely never get to in one league. (Maybe in these 6 month long leagues, we have at the moment) " META crafting options are not compareable to the power of runes, with meta crafting options you can make crafting alot easier by crafting mods which will say "prefixes cannot be changed", which let you far more easy craft items since we also have other currency which allows us to literally delete all bad suffixes in that case and roll these seperately instead of 6 mods on an item, we only have to care for 3 maybe if one of them is not already fractured. There are also other meta crafting options like "cannot roll attack modifiers" or "cannot roll caster modifiers" or "can have up to 3 crafts", the latter refers to itself and 2 additional craft, if the wand item is so over the top with its stats that you rather settle for a lower version and are fine having like 2 x T5 equivalent mods instead of brute forcing 5 - 6 x T1 mods, but it also can be used in combination with the other meta mods as example. - can have up to 3 crafts - cannot roll attack modifiers - suffixes cannot be changed Leads to the outcome that if you use some meta respecting currency in it to deny a majority of modifiers you don't want on that item and keeping at least 1 or up to half the modifiers on an item, without risking them to be deleted/removed. But crafting them in this combination comes with "high" costs which makes them also meta crafting modifiers. The same we see nowadays with omens, which do the same but in insanely expensive. The crafting bench offers a more humane way of crafting and is still considered very expensive. Here we spent like 6 div with all 3 mods per craft, with omens we spent like 90 div per craft if that is even enough... find the mistake or the problematic, especially and once again regarding new players. Yes the "crafting system" can feel and look more complex, since we have more possibilities there to get to one solution and more ifs and buts in regarding of an item. But overall its far more "simple" and affordable as the crafting in PoE 2 is at the moment, unless slamming ex on an item counts as crafting in your sense. " Who said changing gear is bad? I said constantly needing to change gear is bad cause at some point you would want to be able to settle for something and progress a bit instead of being a hideout warrior and constantly have the urge to find better stuff on the market. Which is feedback I heard of extremely many players over the last decade of playing PoE 1 and 2! If it is so good, why do people want a skip function for the campaign and whining about the changes to the temple were they cannot also just skip the whole leveling progress in maps? Like many people can like to change gear frequently, but from what I see and we experience, the majority of casuals and new gamers rather want to be leeches or leechers and just skip most of the content in the game to get to the point where they equip their endgame items and go blasting. I hate that. " First of all, Rarity is only important if you are a newbie and have no clue whats valuable and when you cannot identify which base or blue items are worth it, for which we have LOOTFILTERS. Rarity is literally there to make your life in identifying the right loot easier, nothing else. Second this pressure is none existing. The actual pressure starts when we get into endgame, anything above T10+ maps, where defenses start to matter and we maybe not just shred through anything with ease, at least for most and mostly for new players. Here we can talk about getting also more into the systems, crafting, gearing correctly or caring for it and solving issues with your gear. Since we finally getting options to adress such problems. Before you only stack damage. In maps you maybe get res capped, depending on how new you are maybe even in interludes. But otherwise you only stack damage, as I said like at least 5 times by now... So where is the pressure? Where is that exciting feeling of finding a solution if the game suggests you that damage is the solution and literally runs you over the moment you hit maps or high areas? It makes you blind for what matters. You might be different than the majority of people who wouldn't even dare to play the game without a guide... " Are we in the campaign now again or still talking about the endgame? I am not sure when you are hopping from one to the other, ngl. How much game do you need to be able to play? We have 8 classes, from which each has at least 2 ascendancies to determine your playstyle further. You have easily 100x more content as any other ARPG on the market, except of obviously Poe 1 and Last Epoch maybe, which also offers a gigantic map system with crazy grinds and yet it still lacks worlds behind PoE 1 or 2... Did you even made it ever to the endgame in this game? The game is still in EA, we miss tons of content, as much as classes and weapons and other stuff and the game is already far more as anything else except of PoE1, which is to complex and to much for you from what I read here over and over again. Yet you want more game to play? What!? I literally have to restrict myself and stop playing the game, cause I otherwise would play 6 month straight and make 100th of characters to try and test stuff and enjoy the wast possibilities of PoE. So far I played in every patch we had for PoE 2 at least 15 characters which all were above level 90. And even this league I had to quit in between and again find myself sucking up to it 3 weeks before new league playing my freaking 5th character in like 2 weeks. I print money and at the same time throw the money out the window for gear and skills, while each new character gets financed by the character before... I also buy from the currency I get normally at some point at least 300 - 600 tier 5 support gems for a few divines, so that I have "enough", while I use faustus as a storage for them... the same goes for the runes that are needed the most from all the low bob runes. Iron runes, which I put likely in every weapon and gear piece. Except if there are any interesting and good alternatives which do not cost tenth or hundreds of divs... (nothing on the crafting bench, comes even close to the prices, some of them are priced at) " If I understand you right. I am fine with specific runes which are powerful like the endgame runes, idols, soul cores and stuff like that in addition to the gear and to have a use for sockets on them. Also to make them RNG dropped. Either, the basic stuff should be acquirable if you found them once, in a vendor to be able to obtain them again. OR If I understood you right you meant to only drop unspecific runes in the lower areas we can "identify" or say how we want them to be? That would also be a possibility Those two would be a fine alternative to a crafting bench, which i can live with. Surely they wouldn't offer the same possibilities we have with the crafting bench, but I am anyway for a new PoE experience. I just believe the current rune system cripples people rather than it helps, if it only offers runes in such a limited way until we stack 100th or 1000th of them. Hope you have/had a good night and stay safe! |
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" This is not true. Runes also are exciting drops when you need them. The crafting bench takes currency and converts it to power but so does USING it on items and since as far as I am aware it doesn't take away currency from dropping and just drops along-side it the runes, with tuning sure I'm not saying they drop all the right amounts, allow someone with knowledge more power and ability. Whilst being user friendly to a new player. " This bugs me because re-use means that they would have to limit the power of sockets. Like if they were easy to obtain what's the point of having them at all then. No choices matter now and its just a chore that's required and HAS to be balanced around. I'm not saying a new player cannot make a mistake in using RUNES a new player will drop exalts on gear that has far already bricked. This is what being new means but like Just get all the resistances on all gear slots you want easy is silly. The campaign of POE 1 must be EASY then or like????? Is it not for this exact reason that it is almost no ones favorite part of Poe 1... It's just more chore like when its like this without adding meaningful difficulty imo and just makes noob traps. " Perhaps you think this is a problem because you think its realistic to every get that many and yet I managed two whole leagues with the original stash tabs my friend. I just didn't know they EXISTED. Ofc I love that currency one HOLY. You just don't keep everything that drops. You spend more time reading items and vendor or sell or disenchant sure but none of that matters anyways because you are new. Are we really trying to argue that we WANT more paywall stash tabs?? The item overload is just GOING to exist and forever GET worse. The main thing is you can play without extra tabs just HORDE less and PURGE more. There is literally zero reason to have more than 10 rune of a type that isn't relevant to your build. The tab is just for people who feel the need to horde items. This was a very strange perspective to take considered you were critiquing my ability to focus on early game players. NO PLAYER GETS 5000 RUNES IN EARLY GAME. " This is a fair point that playing more characters puts a much bigger storage demand on the player. I would love to see actual stats from ggg but I suspect that this is a 0.01% type problem where a NEW PLAYER who is UNWILLING to SPEND money for storage space will also have played long enough and kept enough gear for other classes that will have too many 1 space over 10 stack runes that they think they need and wont purge or sell and wish that yes they needed more space. I just don't think this is really something that happens personally. " This is what you said to me that has made the most sense so far. I agree and think farming areas again is terrible. The point is you CAN do it I think 99% of players would rather hit the wall feel hopeless and probably are lost forever which is just sad. " I feel like a rather unnoticed factor about this argument is the DODGE ROLL and your own personal skill. Maps in the campaign are easy yes this is because this is usually where your defenses and stats come into question. This is and would be a terrible experience and a noob trap if you ever NEEDED to obtain huge amounts of defenses during the campaign. Bosses are what is hard for a new player. They are just unfamiliar with the game. Bad support choices. Worse gears found and bad orb usage. Worse passive nodes. You and I can use our own skill to makes up for this because one can just dodge. In fact this allows a shit build the ability to progress as well for a new player. They just dodge enough stuff to get through. This is that invoking of "dark souls" people claimed about the game when it first came out. I think this balance is GREAT for new player onboarding and allows a player who really WANTS to win the ability to do so even if their gear is bad. Defenses I am fairly sure are designed to be not necessary in the campaign and I am pretty confident this WONT change to be more like 0.1 ever. The fact is less defense required means a worse player can do better and then since bosses are so cool and telegraphed they have the ability to STILL succeed on their own skill. Whilst we can just nuke them because we understand stats and gear better. I often tell the story about how getting addicited to beating a fight through SHEER effort, AKA the Elden ring experience, is a feeling that you never forget. I still remember beating Mogh and how I sunk 350 attempts into him. A hard and skill testing fight is surprisingly beneficial towards player enjoyment so long as they feel it was FAIR. " Are we pretending that a four mod item isn't serviceable in the campaign and dropping rune sockets on it is somehow unacceptable gameplay? Like perhaps you think that runes shouldn't be used but you have the skill to ALLOW yourself NOT to use them. Let a new player put the runes in and just GAIN power. THEN THEY CAN STILL EXALT IT. It's just ADDITIVE POWER. FOR NO COST. This is why the system is simple and effective. The difference is that they only balance with a certain level of "runes" on a character per act because they only drop so many. This lever means the game is more new player friendly. Idk with a bench and you just pay shitty augs for guaranteed runes by act 3 this will HAVE to be balanced around for all gear slots??? Making this MORE of a noob trap. This is why it isn't user friendly not really because a menu of affixes is hard to navigate but because dev's who want to make additions to the campaign have to balance around the stats that are NOW GARANTEED FOR EVERYONE. But not something EVERYONE does. " I will say I view rng as a necessary evil for these games. They cease to be games if you can just get what you want. I really don't think the crafting in poe 2 NEEDS to be as powerful as poe 1. The game poe 1 has been out for so long its lost a lot of its "freshness". Someone clearing the game for their 50th time is like a common occurrence for them and new player acquisition is low. QOL time reductions for gearing AKA POWER CREEP are needed for players to be excited to some extend to come back. This is a phenomenon in ALL games. We will see more and more of this come to poe 2 over time as well but to ask for DETEMINISTIC LEVEL META CRAFTING BEFORE 1.0. I find this so absurd. Its just like bro how about worry less about monsters per hour and more about play the game. Return to the genre defining factor of character progression and LOOK FOR LOOT like you are supposed too. IS this NOT WHY WE PLAY? Am I crazy or is meta crafting not like GIGA anti-arpg mentality? Why are so many people just let me get my gear so I can max my build and quit playing earlier do you not play to watch your character become powerful just stop when it isn't fun anymore ffs. " You and I are in a bit of agreeance on this it seems. Wtf is the point to whine about gear upgrades being expensive and feeling like you need to earn them. like JUST GO AND PLAY AND HAVE ALL THAT FUN YOU WERE CLAIMING TO HAVE. I do believe I know the answer. The gamer of today is so concerned with META and Peer reflection because of social media. Isn't this why social anxiety is at an all time high as well. This causes self deprecating thoughts instead of just being happy someone else is also having fun. You look and are jealous or annoyed or any combination of emotions that basically turn your own experience more sour. Comparison ruins the fun and makes people feel like their own progression was too slow or too weak etc... Yeah there is really no combating this anymore and I actually made a long few posts about meta on the forums as well you are welcome to find them by going profile and looking forum posts if you want to know more about how I feel on it. " This is fair because I did do this a bit. Technically I am referring to both because I do not believe that the determinism in gear crafting bench suddenly goes away "just" because you reached endgame. Yes YOU WANT it in campaign but alas I DONT WANT IT in the endgame. The bench holds gear up for a bit longer than campaign no? Maybe this is wrong but I assume even early endgame players turn to the bench a lot for build fixing meaning it is determinism in the endgame which is not something I want. " Yes I do not consider making more characters in the same league a proper playthrough. I don't feel the progression as much, the rewards as much, the league is less exciting now and because the endgame was DULL-ish I wouldn't feel like it will all become "worth". I have tried a few times now and often found myself giving up before getting there. Not because I COULDNT just because I didn't care enough about that character or didn't feel I needed to sink more time in on that league, etc. The focus of my point was that less gear creative options there are affects me. In fact a lot more than you I think because you seem to move through more characters. I want more options to progress that one character that I DO make in a league. I think maybe my opinion will change if the endgame is so abundant that doing a second character will be exciting but perhaps this is just HOW I AM and, if that is the case, long individual goals are much more meaningful in my perspective. Longer gearing is better for me. " This is what I meant basically. Not identify per say but when you socket it basically it becomes the one of your choice out of the possible options. Ofc for basic runes mostly because I LOVE that runes are items to look for later into the game. Just why handicap ourselves on basic survival when the item influxes are at the lowest and hardest. I think the base difficulty is manageable for most players but perhaps this is just not true. I haven't gotten many NON preexisting gamers to try the game yet. At least I believe it wouldn't hurt and also doesn't really do anything bad for the system. I also believe a new player COULD understand it easily. Maybe you could argue that choices leads to players hating themselves for feeling like they made the wrong one but idk this seems like a long shot argument. |
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A final sort of addition to my post. This league will really show if player agency fixes complaints for people about the campaign because runes will show up in every map and often have a decent amount of choice associated with them. Perhaps you will just click all the resistance runes and just breeze through campaign even easier than before. I doubt they will have balanced the bosses around this properly.
I wonder if we will hear the campaign is TOO easy now lmao. Anyways time will tell and in fact I sort of think the sort of ideas to solve early game holes with runes being unlucky drops me and you came up with. This league is kind of a beta test to see if that is true. They probably are very interested to see new players opinions on the book menu and the runes affect on new player power to see if it helps. They might find it really positive and see if these things can maybe sorta "turn into" a crafting bench of sorts ngl. (hinted at in the Q&A when Johnathan mentioned there were bench's 80% done that were scrapped) I just want socketables to stay drops and remain sockets not affixs. I love this league as a concept and am super excited despite all the gear pressure that many players feel with socketables currently to play with some of the runes myself. I kinda don't plan to rebuttal again but I giga thank you for your time and effort spent talking with me. I do feel like I learned something. Please feel free to post again with a final say I will at the very least come back to read. |
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It's a step backwards for gamers, but a step forward for making $$$. Let's be honest, they are making this game to make money. Cosmetics I guess at least pay for themselves, but I'd be surprised if they made GGG more money than stash tabs.
People hate P2W stuff. But the general feeling is that stash tabs are not pay to win...but that was long ago. You can't play this game into the endgame and not buy stash tabs. And with every update they add more garbage, in the hundreds with this one, and sometimes they release a new tab to "organize" it for you. They are simply making the game P2W without the connotation of being P2W. And this takes priority over good design. |
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" It is, saying something else just tells me that you don't have enough experience in that matter. We drop transmutation orbs, augments and even ex far more frequent as we drop runes, which already the first 2 of them we don't use in a common basis, while we would want to use runes in that. Which we cannot since they not drop. While the crafting bench would provide infinite uses. Buying runes is not an option for new players since they cost as much as a new better weapon or a new piece of gear with better mods would cost, while the crafting bench still only costs you transmutations or augmentations for the most common crafts. Also buying runes is not a possibility cause people first would need to reach act 4 to be able to trade. " Easy said, options, freedom! That what you argumented in favour of in one of your posts but just disregard right now. And no they wouldn't need to limit the power of them, like in endgame, we don't have such limits but they drop like candy. Why? Makes no sense. Since we don't have any use there anymore for most of them. But yet you claim that it is to much power which we know for a fact isn't since they only provide 10% resistance for the first rune... Now imagine, just imagine we really could have sockets on all items, which we don't we only could cap one resistance, at best. I cannot even imagine how long you have to farm the first act to have all items with meaningful mods and have them all have sockets to cap resistances completely, which would be ridiculous. Maybe thats something you like, but then I would like to recommend you to play SSF, there you can be like that. There you can farm areas for days to make meaningful progress if you want such a thing. " The choices in fact would matter cause as said you don't have sockets on all items, especially not in the campaign and early acts. And second it is not required. Like mentioned before. We don't even need resistances in most cases for the whole campaign. Please stop ignoring that. " There would be no balance needed if they just stick to actually engaging and challenging bosses which are in fact more fun. It also would make more sense to have actual bosses which are difficult instead of rare monsters that are harder as most bosses. " PoE 1's campaign is crazily easy if you know what you do. For a newbie which gets shoved like 100 league mechanics down his throat it isn't cause they get just overrun by all that content that is not even important. Why but is the campaign a chore for many? Cause they have to deal with all that stuff and for others cause they already played it like 1000th of times. I cannot even say how often I already played the campaign in PoE 1. When I play Diablo 2 or 3, the game has a story that actively drives me forward. In Path of Exile 1, that feeling just isn’t there. There is a story, but you have to deliberately search for it in the different areas, and even then it’s presented mostly in text form. Which is not tempting, therefore the whole campaign is a slog to get to the power level where you want to start out as a god and destroy millions of monsters and fight against huge ass Bosses and pinnacle bosses which gives you challenge. That is the reason why the campaign of PoE 1 is bad, not cause it offers you possibilities to overcome any challenge with reasonable invest. But many people already see the PoE 2 campaign also just as a chore again. They want to skip it and also skip the level progress in maps. Which should make you think about your actual points. As much as none of us want the campaign to be easy. I want it to deliver a reasonable difficulty, close to what we had in 0.1, where we had to fight bosses a few times to actual pass them. At the moment it but doesn't deliver difficulty but only cipples people in their choices and freedom, since they don't have any source to actually prepare for a fight. They are bound to check vendors which offer random choices, are bound to grind for items they would maybe need to make it past that content cause they don't have the skill for it and make bad choices in sense of skilling for defenses instead of pure damage. That is not difficult, it is so borderline bad and simple, that a new player which get told over and over that this game is complex and offers so many choices wouldn't even dare to think about it being that simple. " Which is also the current problem of PoE 2, the campaign is freaking easy. No defenses or resistances required. You stack damage to melt bosses in ms, so you don't have to engage with their mechanics which leads to a majority of people screaming for help all day long for act bosses since they get suggested to ignore basic defenses, since they anyway cannot get any meaningful amounts and are better of with literally damage, which would need to change by learning mechanics, getting better in the game through bosses which actually matter. But we don't have meaningful bosses at the moment and we circle atm around that. You argue in the base of the current game state which is freaking easy and I want actually a game that is challenging and engaging in these regards. I don't see a use or a meaning in farming that early in the game for hours low level areas just to get actual gear or runes that should be just available and easy to acquire. " Again are we talking about new playeers? The majority of them or are we talking about you? The majority of players and the people I often encounter in global chat and through my experience in the game will store anything and struggle extremely with the storage capacity. Most people are horders since they cannot fathom which item is worth it and which is not. Therefore they cling to it. Buddy. Therefore, its nice that you have the ability to come along with only 4 stashes and be fine with the amount you get and loot, but other new players aren't you... and you are not the majority of new players. I hope you get that. You making it far more difficult for new players with what you want. " Which are those runes and do you only argument like that cause you always only play one character each league or do you actually play more as one and try stuff? Cause that alone would be a major reasoning why you should have more runes and of each type cause, ESPECIALLY, since we talk about NEW PLAYERS, you cannot know which you will need for a new character... " You were the one which argued about stacking 1000th of runes... " I would be also interested in actual statistics in that regard, but from what I see normal, casual and new players often have more as 1 character cause they get stuck on some point with one and want to try something else. Again. If you are the genius or if you use a guide, which many do, that is rather not a problem, but it still happens that people don't really enjoy the playstyle, make some bad decisioning which lead the build to not work and start something new. And yet you claim again that you are the majority of new players which only play one build for the rest of their life... or at least for a whole league which is also again contradicting to your former stated desire of having a game thats encourages you to play the game for longer. Because you have choices and PoE always has been a game were you have several dozens of possibiliteis and characters and classes from which you can choose and experience a new game, which you just don't want... it seems. From what I read you want to play 1 character and farm for eternity with that one, but for that there is an solution already in the game. It is named Solo Self Found. You can grind and use the currency the way it was intended. You are not driven by a economy and need easily 10 - 100 times the amount to play a certain build since it is not that easy to acquire gear and the crafting materials to get there. BUT AGAIN. In regard of the majority of new players, this is a fatal base to argue for. Cause most don't want that. They want a smooth experience. " Which is at best sad, cause the game is made for that. Which you see by having seasons that normally occur every 3 month, which are at the moment cause of difficulties and the will to deliver meaningful changes extended to 6 month. But at some point we will get back to 3 months cycles and then you will be far more limited in your time. Which is also a reason why there is standard and people rather playing there. Since they don't have that time to spent actively grinding from 0 every season. " That but is what I understand from what you want. Which makes no sense to me, since it is not in regard of new players. Not every new player is as determined as you to say, ok, I take a step back grind lower areas for x time to get maybe or maybe not better equipment which could lead to a success or do boss x times to get better with its mechanics or to understand what the problem really is. I mean you are half way there, with your assumption that chaos damage in act 3 is a problem, but again it is only half the way, since armour would make it far easier there already. Most of the viper boss abilities and monsters abilities are based on phys damage which they convert partially to chaos. Heck, most people don't even want to watch guides on bosses. But here the entry of viper,... only a few of her abilities which are all entirely dodgeable and easily telegraphed are actual pure chaos damage, which one of them is the chaos rain, she only uses in certain phases where you still be able to stun her which ends the whole phase. https://poe2db.tw/us/Viper_Napuatzi " Areas are actually the hardest part of the campaign cause if you play casually you fight all the monsters you encounter and not just charge and ignore most of the rare enemies since you already know they are a time waste in most cases. Bosses are easier as the areas. And once again, I talk about the boss difficulty which is far inferior to rare enemies you can encounter in such areas. Like the wild hogs which just outrun, overrun and stun you with ease. Most people don't have the skill to go against them and they are more deadly as a well telegraphed mechanic of a boss you can act against. " I don't really see that argument at all. We have now at the moment no need for defenses at all, to stacking as you say "HUGE AMOUNTS" of defenses. Is there really nothing in between no defenses and huge amoutns of defenses in your understanding? For me I would like to see the need of reasonable defenses needed to overcome certain bosses which should be more of a challenge as rare monster encounters, which they are not at the moment with a few exceptions maybe. " And you think a new player that is not elden ring experienced will see that as fair in an ARPG,... Action role play game. Stacking only damage, throwing defenses out the window and working up their skill? Especially if the game itself advertises meaningful combat and gives you a choice at start of every skill tree to be made between 3x defenses or 1x damage? " No, but I get the feeling you want to pretend that people have a loss if they instead of adding a mod on top or just craft it and block a prefix or suffix with it, to be a problem. Cause it isn't, since they don't have 6 mods in the rule. Which made your point of having runes which are only additive irrelevant, since, again, players don't work with 6 mod items in the campaign cause they have no acces to it. Yet you keep on insisting that it would be far superior to just add something on top which isn't the case since you don't have the problem of 6 mod items which would block all the possible outcomes for a craft. " Wrong again, sorry. But now I get the feeling you didn't understand or read anything I told you. I want to have MORE RUNES! That we can actually use them without regretting it, your thought here implements the complete opposite, like your base, were we don't have any access to them and should grind hours or days for an upgrade of 12% inc phys damage which is in many cases less as we get from a skill point on the tree... So please stop making this stuff up and pretending that your view is what I would like to see. " That is a lie, cause the runes are costly and the exalt you use on it is also. 1 exalt can give you a 90% elemental resistance ring with mana and utility. And again a 3 or 4 mod item could be crafted with a mod and you would not only have the possibility to slam it also, you could just change the crafted mod later to something more powerful OR remove it and try your luck to slam it again. But you will not keep that item in a campaign purpose for that long as it would make sense, to throw that much currency on it, while the crafting bench would only ask for a transmutation and you saying, that slamming 5 ex on it is fine.... which it isn't. (5 ex cause you slam for 1 and have the value of the rune). " This is why the system is flawed and a problem, especially in regard of new players and a weak campaign, especially weak boss fights which are not balanced to the areas you have to cross. " So by limiting possible solutions for a problem and gating people from obtaining them you make the game more player friendly? oO Sorry but that makes no sense. " How and why? Does your runes require that balancing? Sometimes you get items which have 6 mods and only 3 of them are really good, like boots, where you care for movement speed, life and possibly one good resistance. It can happen that items are full and offer no freedom to acquire more on that item. So what kind of balancing you would wish for, which runes not make worse? Since it would allow you to make such item more useful as a crafting bench. " What exactly? " First point, navigating through your stash is a problem for you? If not, then the first line was literally unnecessary. And second. that would make balancing actually easier, since they know that people can and will have them instead of relying on RNG and a unknown factor of how or which defenses will a player obtain up to that point... If you calculate equations, whats harder to understand and calculate. A equation in which you know the numbers and the possible result or a equation in which you have to calc with x, y, a, b, c, with no clue of the possible result? I think the answer is obvious but you make it sound like it isn't. " Isn't that the equivalent of people having runes and simply not using them since they hope to get another slot on a different item, which would make the rune more powerful or in fear of loosing value? " In some sort, yes. But not in the amount it is at this moment featured in the game! " Far to simpel thought... and disregarding what I actually said... In PoE 1 you don't just get what you want either. But you have options and not just RNG. Which smooth the leveling progress far more. In PoE 1 we don't have like every 2 minutes people asking for help in campaign, cause you can acquire player power. In PoE 2 that is a different story, the global chat is constantly asking people for help with campaign bosses, maybe cause they lack skill, but maybe cause they have no choice left, cause the only other option for them would be to quit, as to endlessly grind lower areas over and over in hope for something meaningful in their drops. " Not a clue what you mean by that, the Game itself was never really "fresh" to begin with. Yes it offered a huge ass skill tree, but the basics were the same as in D2 which existed for far longer now and still keeps people playing and many. " Why is that? Cause people are Intimidated by people like yours which paint the game as something extreme, while it really isn't. You have basic needs you should look at and people can easily figure stuff out. What else? The graphics were never really good, the possibilities still are. Someone who wants to figure stuff out will. The game but was never made for the masses, which also leads to the point that new player acquisition is low. While people who still play D2 would love it, if they would give it the same chance they gave D2 back in the time they just don't want to invest that much anymore and younger players rather not want to have huge ass skill trees and planners or the need of guides to play a game. They want vampire survivor playstyle, short rounds. 30 minutes max, with no skill requirements, no need for real build planning or anything in that regard, simply cause any choice you get is random to a certain degree. " Where did you got the feeling that I want that? Just cause I ask for a crafting bench that simplifies the current rune system? Did you even read what I wrote or did you just interpret what I said? Is that once again your imagination or are we really discussion that seriously? " You realize that you argued against that in most of your arguments and are against meaningful loot? You want it to be pure RNG and a crippling system that doesn't give you the possibilities to actually progress as a new player, but are bound to randomness and the luck to obtain something that could or could not help you dealing with it. " You definitely give me these vibes, since you don't understand the crafting system, critizise it for what it does and judging meta crafting without having any clue of it. You even show me again that you didn't understood one word of what I said, since it only gives you the possibility to craft, instead of playing a casino game in which you mostly just gamble. And if I may teach you that, the best ARPG of the past, people at least claim, had a freaking deteministic crafting system, called runes! Yes you had to find them random and they could have been rare, but you were able to predict its outcome very directly and could at some point just craft your items. LITERALLY. So which ARPGS do you have in mind, which are against crafting. Which didn't gave you the way of deterministically progress. And how could it be anti-arpg at all, if THE GAME which was the base for literally any of the modern ARPGs had it. Maybe in a game that has not a player driven market system involved were we can literally trade items. But most of these games are also dead in weeks if not days ngl. You are done with them far earlier and have nothing left to do compared to PoE 1 or 2. Cause they don't offer any content. And please don't tell me you thinking about Diablo 3. Cause most people would say your suggestion of being crazy would fit that very well. " I would go a step further and say its cause of streamers and cause of people which say new players, they shall experience the game with guides. These people get into the game with a certain expection, to destroy content the way they see streamers doing it without ever going to learn to mechanics or what matters. People are unable to differentiate. They cannot and don't want to understand that it is not a common drop to get mirrors but demand it cause their friend was so lucky after 50 hours to actually got one randomly in the acts. Like that is one of the random factors I say are fine in the game. The chance to find something exaggerated valuable. The chance to find gear thats just bonkers. My take here but is, that it shouldn't be forced onto new players in the very basic needs of the game. This should hold up in the endgame, were it is said to be grindy. " For me that was not combating it, it was rather telling you to make your own experiences instead of judging systems based on imaginations and trying to understand it, without demonizing it. " The bench is almost always relevant in PoE 1, but I don't say we need everything or all we had from PoE 1. I rather just say that the basic needs should be as accessible as we had it with the crafting bench from PoE 1. I don't say we need meta crafting if we get actual alternatives to crafting, cause crafting was just awesome and a part why I loved PoE. I who is not that lucky in finding items are allowed to also get a fair share and make my own way through the endgame by acting smart and using the possibilities and freedom the game provided. Crafting still, for many is also gamba there and they claim there is no deterministic steps to make, which is partially correct, but only cause they don't want to see the possibilities in which you can twist the wheel of luck in your favours. There is no quarantee to get a 6 mod item in PoE 1, except you want to settle for far inferior mods. But at least you were not completely doomed to rely on luck. This is important for my understanding cause the itemization of PoE games are completely different as in other ARPGs. We get far more crap and have to actually craft or gamba on vendors to get some meaningful upgrades as that we will get them from the ground like in Torchlight as example. In Torchlight you had Vendors or Quest rewards which were clear upgrades. But which also destroyed the need of looting items in some sort or up to a certain level. " You but understand that this is what we have with runes also? I but rather don't be forced to spent a lot of currency to do so as to make it more accessible for people, so that they can spent their hard earned/farmed currency for stuff that actually matters, like crafting or in your sense gambling. " Wow it took you 26 lines of text to abolish this ARPG mentality you just talked about and throw it in a gutter. o_o The wish to explore and find new interesting interactions between skills and the outcome of different builds... Just plain dead. In the game which is known for exactly that. Which offers you near endless possibilities in skill and build combinations you go straight to the the "I don't, cause it doesn't feel rewarding anymore" after playing one character... That is crazy. Ngl. " Yet you still want them to be more punishing? Oo " You harshly was against that, in like 2 to 3 very long discussions you really argued against possibilities and wanted to have random RNG based progression to not get possibilities to progress or upgrade your character. " I did play several character cause the endgame is so flat at the moment and not really enjoyable for me. If I like a character I mostly do all the pinnacle bosses once with them and then farm chaos or sekhema trials cause they are fun, compared to the rest of the endgame. At the moment the endgame remind me to much about anything I hate about other ARPGs which make progress a random grind were we literally just brainlessly destroy anything in our path for days to get to +2 to the value of the 2.0000.0000 dps we already do. Which is senseless to me. " For real, if you wish for that, try SSF. I bet you will be far more invested into the game if you play that mode and if you ever have the urge to play with friends you guys can either say you play standard and abolish trading or you make a private league for yourselves. " " Dunno that sounds as if you want to argue against anything you said so far :,D " Having no choices is my problem, which the current system and the runes do. They limit us in choices and force us to use items or waste potential upgrades. Anyways I would like you to look up Solo Self Found or private leagues, cause it sounds like those parts would be the right place for you and not a trade league. There you have anything you ache for from what I understood so far and especially after your last post. The only problem there is that you always have to play for yourself, which is sad in my eyes and forces me to play trade. Cause I would love such a mode with friends or people I enjoy to play. Once again stay safe and good loot! Last edited by InvisiblePosture#7553 on May 18, 2026, 1:43:45 PM
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" This part caught my eye. One of my issues with rune system is it's shifting the value/excitement of gear away from the item itself and more towards how many sockets does/can the base have. Is there something specific you dislike about relying on affixes in poe2? or is it more that having two somewhat independant systems feels fun/better? or w/e. Id been interesting in hearing your take. Please GGG, I need my sparkly crown MTX in PoE2.
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" Well it's not a shift really. Socket currency has not been a limiting factor for my or any of my friends gameplay since 0.1. Most of the time if I find gear I want to socket I have the ability to without needing to go to the trade market even. Even then the socket currency is usually cheap enough. So in my eyes since the cost to gain the regular amount of sockets doesn't feel restricting its just additional on top. Two systems that are separate is what I like. It means items are MORE valuable from a lucky based stance with this as well. It is just less determinism inside of the affixes. If the poe 1 bench doesn't exist to let you write on them. IN essence you can chase items on average for longer because now you want to get exceptional with extra sockets AND can't guarantee almost any affix for free. When homogenizing omens were in the game I hated that the trade market would just suddenly become lists of the exact same item at some price of divines. I don't believe the bench will effect FINALIZED items the same but I also don't think standardized stats makes the game MORE friendly. From my perspective this just makes there be many more chores and catches for players because they don't want to make the experience of someone who is using them to the fullest be trivial in a new playthrough which would then become so vastly different from someone who isn't. The RNG drops of runes becomes a balance lever they pull from this perspective. It means that they don't have to consider the player who has all the rune sockets on gear UNTIL they are reaching trade unlocked. Even then with the restriction of GOLD they likely can only buy 1-2 items on top this is very purposefully designed I feel like. It is just not possible to get full sockets remotely quickly in the campaign and I've heard many people really like the campaign. I DO FEEL like it is because the company added skill based bosses with dodge rolling and less player requirements because nothing is guaranteed. These two factors are my driving force when promoting the rune system. Not to mention it is reading in a more fun way. Instead of a list that you feel like you need to understand you can just drop it and then read it 1 by 1. Since a BRAND NEW player doesn't have the stash tab nor are they concerned with HOW MUCH exists in the game its just nice that they drip feed customization and power guarantee options for players who feel like they need to use it. -edit- We also just have essences for affixes what is the point of their being guaranteed runes? Are we going to make these guaranteed as well? Do we JUST WANT BOTH TO BE CHORES? It's just chores for the sake of chores idk. Guaranteed player power makes the game balance consider it and thus the game either feels trivial because you know how to use it and it isn't balanced around or ungodly hard for those who don't know to use it because it is balanced around. I appreciate that they consider new players seemly quite a lot in my opinion and RNG does help a new player because on average requirements will just be less. Last edited by BadAtMid#0454 on May 18, 2026, 10:58:21 AM
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Not gonna read all these super long posts but I agree with the general idea of OP.
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" This is THE problem. I really don't want to keep at it because over the course of responses your language towards me has felt more and more aggressive. GGG themselves have identified that new players and crafting bench = a worse player experience. They HAVE argued against it in interviews. That IS WHY they don't have it in this game. One of the HUGEST reasons they made so many decisions in poe 2 that are different is because they want to expand their company and prospects and poe 1 has new player onboarding issues they are looking to solve. I simply believe that guaranteed player power IS NOT new player friendly. I think you largely underestimate the ability for players to make mistakes and in no world should a player who knows to take fire resist on bench for every item slot be able to breeze through fire zones that ARE THEN FORCFULLY balanced around them. The fact is when you can just get stats for no cost IF they want to make the experience INTERESTING, Which they do, you have to consider the player who LEARNS the game SYSTEMS. This is just detrimental to players who don't know this. RUNES are an in between. Whilst I agree you cannot just always get the resistance one wants easily because they are random you also cannot just let players decide zone by zone that they can get to 70% resist via bench. Runes let's someone who is struggling achieve the extra bump they might need without making it a requirement. SINCE RESISTANCE is SO valuable for increasing max hp this DOES VASTLY change experiences of players who have it vs who don't. At least since runes are random they DONT make it so you NEED them during campaign because some people just DONT KNOW THE GAME BRO. Last edited by BadAtMid#0454 on May 18, 2026, 12:05:36 PM
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" I think this criticism ignores a lot of what the OP actually said. The OP already played two leagues without buying extra stash tabs and still managed to finish the game both times. He even mentioned that he personally saw little need for additional stash space. Also, most of the stash tabs being discussed already existed for years in PoE 1. If you regularly played PoE 1 and already own the common stash tabs, you are probably fine. Chris Wilson also stated in the past that they do not want to design mechanics that effectively force players to buy new stash tabs every league. And regarding item clutter: this is still an Early Access title. Limited space while systems and loot structures are still being tested does not automatically mean the game is intentionally becoming P2W. I understand why some players dislike stash monetization, but calling it “prioritized over good design” feels exaggerated to me. But I get the feeling you are just frustrated cause your beloved game, which most likely is not PoE charged you 3 times the money for only 1/100 of the content PoE does provide, which lead to this post of yours. |
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