Let's talk about INT versus DEX players Chris Wilson mentioned. Is that really what's going on here?

Intelligence wins in high tiers always...

DPM players are addicted players with addicting behavior, if anything they ruin games for the sake of dopamine. These players should be frown upon imo, they can be drug addicts all they want but they should be isolated and not taken seriously.

While feedback loops are one way to trigger dopamine, unpredictability and anticipation also trigger dopamine with unpredictability triggering one of the highest, if not the highest, amounts of dopamine.

Game design focuses on triggering dopamine for all types of players.

With this in mind, unpredictability (i.e. - hard boss fights, or DEX based plays requiring getting timing exactly right) all fall under ways to trigger dopamine.

This entire thread is running the risk of turning into a "gatekeeping" argument without acknowledging that triggering dopamine is inherent in game design and affects us all.

DEX Player Example:
Timing a perfect dodge, anticipating a boss window, landing a skill rotation are all part of prediction and reward scenarios. This is exactly what dopamine responds to most strongly.

when gameplay have reward (dopamine) in itself (fulfilment of you performing difficult action/movement/combo in a small period of time window) - it makes gameplay exciting by itself.

when gameplay is just a work to get currency which is excitement = then gameplay become boring. And the game become toxic loop of tinks addiction and boring map-"crafting" sessions and then screen clears.

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600lbpanther#3839 wrote:

While feedback loops are one way to trigger dopamine, unpredictability and anticipation also trigger dopamine with unpredictability triggering one of the highest, if not the highest, amounts of dopamine.

Game design focuses on triggering dopamine for all types of players.

With this in mind, unpredictability (i.e. - hard boss fights, or DEX based plays requiring getting timing exactly right) all fall under ways to trigger dopamine.

This entire thread is running the risk of turning into a "gatekeeping" argument without acknowledging that triggering dopamine is inherent in game design and affects us all.

DEX Player Example:
Timing a perfect dodge, anticipating a boss window, landing a skill rotation are all part of prediction and reward scenarios. This is exactly what dopamine responds to most strongly.

I understand what you're trying to say there, but they are fundamentally different. I believe you've also made the mistake of equating the DPM side with INT at one point in your replies here.. and like I've said before, it's very far from the truth. I'll try to explain.

I've specifically mentioned before instant gratification. This is a key point, the one that makes all the difference. Instant gratification is very bad.

With this in mind, which of the 3 (INT, DEX, DPM) do you think has the most "delayed" gratification if you want to call it that, or one that is the most rewarding for your legitimate effort? You'd be surprised perhaps to notice that it is INT, followed by DEX and DPM being the absolute last. Again, in reality, DPM has nothing to do with INT. It just sits comfy in there, like a little parasite.

Here's a small excerpt AI conjured for me here that encapsulates the problem very well:

"A soulslike respects your time by requiring your full attention. PoE's optimal endgame often involves "blasting" through maps, deleting entire screens of enemeies in seconds to maximize the number of lottery tickets per hour. The gameplay can become a hypnotic flow state where the primitive brain is purely hunting for the light and sound of a valuable drop, and the thinking mind is almost disengaged. That trance state is a pure, unadultered dopamine loop.

In short: a soulslike is a mountain you climb with a promise of a singular, breathtaking view. PoE is a continent-spanning casino where the odds are always just good enough to keep you playing until 4 a.m."

Notice what words it used there to describe it.. primitive brain... the thinking mind is almost disengaged.. well that doesn't make any sense now, does it? How exactly can we equate these with the INT side? It's simple, we can't and we shouldn't.

Now, just like INT and DEX can mingle together like I've mentioned before, so can INT with DPM to an extent. In essence however, they are definitely not one and the same.

And that's easy to spot too, I can give you a perfect example of pure INT. Hopefully you are familiar with him but there are others too. You might've heard of a content creator called Dr3adful. If you've ever seen his content, he churns builds one after the other, he said himself that once the build is proven he doesn't feel any need to further play on it and goes to another idea and tries to make that work and so on. That is the true expression of INT.

Is DEX in opposition to INT? In a vacuum, in many ways, yes. Does it pose an existential threat to INT? Absolutely not, like I've mentioned myself.. I've always wanted a mix of both. Does DEX however pose an existential threat to DPM? Yes, very much so, and it is impossible for them to coexist. Does INT pose a threat to DPM? Not really, in many ways it is slightly more convenient for a pure INT, but not a requirement (For example, makes it easier to put together the pieces for their build.. and thus allowing for more time to craft more builds). Thus why we see this parasitic relationship exist as it is.

Hopefully that makes it super clear.

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vzmNitie#2139 wrote:

when gameplay have reward (dopamine) in itself (fulfilment of you performing difficult action/movement/combo in a small period of time window) - it makes gameplay exciting by itself.

when gameplay is just a work to get currency which is excitement = then gameplay become boring. And the game become toxic loop of tinks addiction and boring map-"crafting" sessions and then screen clears.

Exactly

Pro-longed Hyper-stimulation of your internal reward feedback loop is not great, dex or int player.

You guys ever wonder why you have trouble getting into other games? lol

When I first got into PoE1 almost a decade ago I went from someone who would read a book for fun per month to someone who didn't read a single book for like 3 years.

Kinda game you need to take a conscious detox period from lmao.