Let's talk about INT versus DEX players Chris Wilson mentioned. Is that really what's going on here?

"

....and, our mutual friend Daniel Stansens commented earlier this
year at the round table, in fact, he described it as, dexterity players versus intelligence players, where a dexterity player wants to test their hand-eye coordination, and how good they are with the controls, and an intelligence player is keen to come up with some clever character build, that is, you know, the best min-maxing of stats that does damage, and I found that a kind of, a cool way of looking at it.

I've talked a bit about this in another thread, but I think this deserves one on it's own.

First of all, I just want to mention, like I've said previously, that while there are people that fit exclusively in one camp or the other... most people want and enjoy a combination of both. So things aren't as black and white as that statement makes it out to be from that specific labeling so to speak.

But this is not the main thing I wanted to talk about here, instead I want to talk about the weakness the INT side has in the age of endless youtube Content Creators, build guides, and easily available information in general.

Chris says that "an intelligence player is keen to come up with some clever character build" , and that is true, in a vacuum. But the reality is quite a bit different then that ideal he mentions. Back in the day of his prime so to speak, the internet wasn't what it is now, so he's viewing it through some rather “rose‑tinted glasses” . Information wasn't so readily available and games weren't being solved on day 3 and posted for everyone to see.

In short, the INT side of PoE can be easily outsourced, and as a result, most players don't truly engage with the INT side of the game. Build guides, crafting sites, etc. This will become even more apparent as build guides will now be integrated in the main game.

In reality, a very small portion of the player base truly engages with the INT side.... I call it the 3%. Usually those are the ones that provide the blueprints for everyone else too.

And, you can even verify this via a tool made by that 3%. It's called PoE Ninja. there you can see how most people have identical builds with little to no difference in concept.

Another blatant proof of this outsourcing is that specific billionaire that had some chinese guy make a character for him entirely and due to the game being so INT oriented... he could clear endgame content as well as any other, without having any actual merit himself.

So then, if the INT side is in practice much smaller due to how internet evolved, does that mean the dex side is the overwhelming majority? Not quite...

In the modern days internet, there is actually a third category here, that is neither INT nor DEX. We'll call it DPM.

So what is DPM?

DPM could either stand for "damage per minute" or "dopamine". This category is neither interested in DEX nor INT stuff... it's only interested in the instant gratification loot drops provide. It's really only interested in "number go up" kind of things. It's interested in gambling.

This side, is also a bit of a product of this decade of increasing consumerism mentality and fast format news/"content". But I don't want to talk too much at large about this, obviously, not a great thing.... everyone knows that.

What is really interesting however... is how this DPM side hides under the guise of the INT side to preserve it's needs for quick dopamine and instant gratification. Not consciously, mind you, most of them really do believe they are part of the INT side when it couldn't be further from the truth.

Think about it this way.. does a cleverly crafted build NEED to result in the trivialization of gameplay? No. All it needs to do is be on par with what a DEX player can do without one or outperform slightly some DEX players. You could also "put the glove on the other hand" and ask yourself, does a perfectly executed parry NEED to vaporize the boss or entire screens of enemies? Of course not.

Yet we constantly hear about people wanting to skip campaign and get faster to endgame, people that want to screen wipe packs as fast as possible, people that want to melt bosses. What do all these things have in common? Shortening that gap between them and the dopamine hits. This is the DPM side you're hearing, not the INT side.

The INT side can and should easily co-exist with DEX side and oftentimes they overlap. But this DPM side... this doesn't work at all with what DEX side wants.... because that would inherently go against their instant gratification and dopamine hits.

Nothing will most likely come out of this, but I hope you enjoyed the read.

But what about the STR side?

STR players want to smash keyboard when seeing exp penalty again:)

I've advocated that GGG lock character data from outside sources for a long time now.

Instead they went the other direction with an integrated copy paste mechanic. Yes, players will still make guides but people might actually read those guides and thus learn something.

It's a notable difference than just looking up what setup everyone is playing on PoE Ninja. Which I actively avoid. I've actually abandoned builds because a streamer was playing it.

Knowledge and hand-eye coordination players aren't exclusive by any means and the effects are usually exponential. PoE has traditionally gotten both these wrong however. Knowledge generally devolved into stash smashing while reflex is not rewarded enough due to gear gate keeping.

The combo system is a good example of this. There's a difference between dependency and synergy. The trick is to make players want to get that extra payoff not force it. Doesn't help we do way too much damage. The point is to make the combat take proportionally less time by getting doing a setup and payoff yet I can one-shot anything with Flame Blast no with setup at all.

Ion you're fired up and I love the passion! The DEX vs INT conversation is really talking about a problem that encapsulates what Jonathan said in regards to balancing the game for players who want to slide through combat at blazing speeds and players who want an uphill battle.:

"Incredibly tricky to split the difference, just incredibly tricky."

The dopamine point you bring up is interesting because it could be one of the primary drivers compelling each of us to our favored playing style (DEX, INT, or blend of the 2).

To define dopamine I had to turn to the Internet because I'm not a neuroscientist or MD although I did go to college for about as long as they do ("A lot of people go to college for 7 years..." "I know, they're called doctors").

"Dopamine is widely misunderstood as the "pleasure chemical" — it's more accurately the anticipation and pursuit chemical. It spikes hardest not when you get a reward, but when you expect one. The key mechanism is variable ratio reinforcement — the same schedule that makes slot machines so compelling. When reward timing is unpredictable, dopamine release is significantly higher than with fixed rewards."

So with this definition in mind, it changes my perspective a little bit and turns it towards many conversations including DEX vs INT players, fixed campaign versus dynamic campaign, as well as difficulty.

Dopamine can be applied to people who want a more difficult vs easier campaign, INT-vs-DEX playing style game or dynamic campaign vs fixed campaign, etc.

It's all about the expectation. DEX-INT expectations are causing friction which is the problem GGG is trying to solve.

For example, unpredictability can be the reason people prefer more difficult gameplay or more "hands on" gameplay. When the game is easy for them, the unpredictability has been removed.

Dopamine can be the reason people like the INT side: The anticipation of finding the next great drop or completing the campaign or T2 map.

Depending on how macro or granular the lens determines the expectation of unpredictability. For example, a dynamic campaign with twists and turns provides unpredictability.

I agree that both sides have merit (again, even the founding fathers of GGG are divided in the gameplay: One is Dex, One is Int). I would venture to say that a lot of INT players don't necessarily care about solving the skill tree puzzle, that they are perfectly OK following a guide (especially while they learn the game), and they don't even think about the community bestowing merit upon them (or not) based on the way they play a video game.

In the end, it's about "Fun" and there are varying definitions of what fun constitutes. I'm all for having as many options as possible and specifically with DEX VS INT: I'm for playing styles that lend themselves 80% DEX 20% INT or 20% DEX 80% INT and a few blends in-between.

I mean it has to be a blend of some sort in order to make it work unless they have classes specifically designed as "DEX" classes and others specifically "INT" classes which seems too extreme. Anyway, good thread and hope this gets discussed more because I believe this is the crux of the friction for playing styles.

As a quick aside, Chris is an INT player and Jonathan a DEX player: For those anticipating Chris's game to be much more difficult and closer to 0.1 patch, I don't know if I would be so sure.

there is this thing called the cobra effect which kind of applies here(where humans wanted to eradicate cobras in india and put a bounty on them. people started breeding them for money and it got worse.)

i think the dopamine players are confused and not part of the INT type, kek.

the fast clearing playstyle is actually boring to play, so the "only" thing dopamine players can enjoy is the loot aspect/power fanatasy.
as a result they perceive loot as fun, seeking more, thinking to themselves"if i was stronger and faster i would get my mageblood tomorrow".
then in response they advocate for a fast game hoping for it to become more fulfilling(more loot), not realising that they are asking the devs to make the game more boring for them, without getting more loot.

the important metric for their enjoyment is actually:
time vs. reward,
not killcount/movespeed vs reward

unfortunately the game leans towards time consuming rather than challenging, and if you self impose challenges like ssf or hc you need certain masochistic tendencies. but those kinds of players can also escape that need for loot to some degree because they have different goals.


if ggg's balance team tweaks the sliders to make us tankier and deal less damage, while giving more loot even the dopamine players can be satisfied with slow combat.

"

STR players want to smash keyboard when seeing exp penalty again:)

Yep, classic STR player:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwM3cUJKkuE

"

KäsePizza#3007 wrote:

But what about the STR side?

Come on man, they want to make changes for the other 90% of the players. Not the str players.

-Chris Wilson

"You know, that buff that makes the star on your feet"

-Jonathan Rogers

That would be fortify...............

"

Azimuthus#1135 wrote:

"

STR players want to smash keyboard when seeing exp penalty again:)

Yep, classic STR player:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwM3cUJKkuE

I see no problem here, except that little sissy that sits back down after eye contact.

Just saw the perfect example of the "DPM" player I was talking about, posting on the forums here, take a look: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3930699/page/1#p26633003

"

omgzal123#3613 wrote:

Here is why:

- There should be 1 game 2 campaigns. No one asked for 2 games.
- Atlas looks like a cheap mobile game, what a joke.
- There is no "new" content, everything is being PORTED from PoE1.
- This game was supposed to be in early access for 6 months, not 2 YEARS.
- The most important thing is Dive/h so instead of making stupid system add a way to track DIV/HOUR.
- Streamers are "HYPED" about this for no reason.
- Real PLAYERS like me, give REAL feedback not BS.
- Oh right, what happened to MOBILE PoE????? Don't you have a PHONE?? What a joke.
- Again there should be only 1 game, 2 campaigns.
- Rewards for killing campaign bosses are NOTHING, you fight a boss for an hour and get random SH*** on the ground that you don't even pick up. They should give POWERFUL rewards for the effort like ascendancy .
- Ascendancy is more than a JOKE, this should be implemented into campaigns and rewarded for difficult fights, forcing players to do stupic content they don't want is A JOKE!!!!!!
- No one is going to read this anyways, GGG doesn't care about TRUE feedback, only "STREAMERS".

JOKE!!!

Notice what I've highlighted.
Notice the instant gratification and number go up mentality.
Notice how for them, a campaign boss takes an hour, despite that clearly not being the case for anyone... but that's how it feels for him. Because he wants to skip it all and get to his dopamine hits from gear drops.