Just a reminder, please remove the team loot bonus in version 0.5.

"

Soulsniper1313#7576 wrote:

What?

Casuals are not forming rarity parties to abuse the bonus loot. I am not saying remove ALL loot. I am saying remove the BONUS loot. How is that so hard for you to understand?

You play with friends cool. Me too. Guess why I do it. I will tell you, it has NOTHING to do with BONUS loot. The BONUS loot is what we are talking about. The increased rarity multiplied by rarity bots. It is not that hard to understand.

Why do the "Free Xp NO damage NO loot" parties exist? Please explain this SINGLE point and you will see the problem.

Side note, what streamer/s are you referencing? DM? Tri? What other streamer are you referring to? I know for sure you cant be talking about Empy or Ziz....

If you have a full 6 man of all friends enjoying the game together, is that not enough? They need BONUS loot on top of that? You are proving the point again and again it is about the BONUS loot and NOT enjoying the game with friends.

But but but they have 5x the HP! Yea, and you have 6x the damage in a game where you can be strong enough to have 5afkers and still one shot. Again, IT IS ALL ABOUT THE BONUS LOOT.

Remove bonus loot
Remove rarity/cull bots
Remove multi boxing
Remove RMT'ers

Boom, economy is already in a better state. Even with the temple BS from Johnathan. Removing the BONUS loot from parties would have stemmed it some what. Party BONUS only multiplied the problem.

But you went from solo only to I group with friends sometimes. The truth is starting to come out. You want bonus loot to carry someone. That is the problem. You are doing it for the loot and not the enjoyment of playing the game with friends.

You keep emphasizing BONUS, which makes me think we're not on the same page about how this works. Just got the sake of this one narrow question, let's say we have two players, with 0% increased rarity at every possible level. Which do you understand to create more loot, and why:
A) 1 player that kills 2,000 monsters in a map.
B) 2 players that kill 2,000 monsters in a map.


Then you're talking about the leech parties I mentioned before. That's an interesting topic if you've got more specific thoughts around it. That's where the base line math above does break, when the loot isn't shared. Which goes back to the same question of, should we punish the people that aren't doing that, because some people bring in leechers? I'm on board with closing the leeching loophole if there's a fair way to do it that doesn't punish everyone else. But whether we could agree on that at all friends on your answer to the question above.

Then you bring up rarity bots in your checklist, which sounds way more likely to be a root cause than the party bonus. That would be an interesting conversation avenue too, and imo actually make a significant change in the direction that you want. Personally I don't like rarity on gear at all anyways. Outside of amount of and efficiency of party time invested, player rarity is what I pin the lions share of the economic gap on (and meta constraints).


There's a pretty big list of very popular streamers for PoE; out of them Empy is the only big one I know that does party play every league. Many play SSF for reasons for sure, but I'm more referring to the ones like Fubgun or Snoobae that power grind at levels on par with groups. But if you think I'm wrong there by all means shoot me some VoDs showing how much faster groups are at league start. I need more stalling content to consume anyways. :)


Not sure what's confusing about my story. On league start and when I'm in grind mode, I play solo. When I want to make money fast, I'm sitting in my hideout crafting and trading. When my friends are online, usually after the first couple weeks when I'm not as focused on grinding, we usually derp around on alts going slow as shit and over leveling every area. Sometimes we hop on and try to do pinnacle bosses with various numbers of players for fun (boss unique aren't affected by quant/rarity.) None of that is to get more loot, it's just for fun. I don't have them leeching in my maps or anything lame like that. We have experimented with doing rarity bot set ups with various numbers of players, and never found the return anywhere near what I get solo grinding or trading, and it was tedious to set up and coordinate, so we abandoned it because it wasn't worth it.

There are four categories of players in the game that contribute to problems:

1. casual solo players;
2. casual players playing in groups of 2-3;
3. professional players / farmers who play all day.
4. professional or bot-based parties / farmers who play all day (with rarity bots, aura bots, etc.). This also includes leech groups.

The first two categories have a minor impact on the economy. The third category can have a moderate impact.

The fourth category has a strong negative impact on the league economy, devaluing the loot and currency of the first two groups. This behavior negatively impacts both the economy and online play.

In my opinion, for the healthy economy, the influence of the fourth category needs to be significantly reduced, and perhaps the influence of the third needs to be somewhat reduced, while simultaneously increasing the influence of categories 1-2.

Again, these are thoughts and ideas of a casual player who plays 1.5-3 hours a day.

1. New league types:
A SSF league with trading. In this case, players can trade, but using specialized parties for farming will be impossible.
"Casual" SSF league. With or without trading. Default rarity +200%, item count +200%. A casual solo league with increased drop rates, so players can craft items relatively quickly and comfortably.

2. Reworking the rarity system for parties.
The goal is to eliminate influence of rarity bots on drops. Also, from personal observations: casual party doesn't provide any advantages.

3. Reworking the difficulty of playing in parties.
The problem is that the current difficulty mechanism works fine for a "regular casual party." A professional party doesn't care if rare mobs have 400% HP. Even if mobs are at 1000%, a party will kill them in one shot. As for me mobs should have new mechanics or abilities, not just increased hp. For professional parties, the game doesn't offer additional difficulty, only extra loot.

For example: add some rare long range mobs, that prefere to attack rariry/aura bots.

3.1. Also i would prefere if waystones had charges. The more players on map the more charges is depleted from waystone/tablet.

4. Providing bonuses for casual players that wouldn't be beneficial for categories 3 and 4.

New hideout item that allows you to select bonuses and penalties for a maps.

For example: for the first 15-20 maps per day, item rarity and quantity +150%. After the bonus ends, the rarity and quantity are reduced by -150%. This only works in solo or 2-3-player parties (if all players have the bonus active). The penalty also applies to the whole party.
Or: for the first 10 bosses, item rarity and quantity +150%. After that, the penalty is -150%. Items are bound to the player's account and cannot be traded.

I understand the ideas are extremely crude, but such mechanics will make the negative effects of the economy less noticeable for casual players and make the game more comfortable.

5. Activities for high-level professional players.
That will require a lot of currency, but will also reward titles and cosmetics. Perhaps new, truly challenging Pinnacle bosses and so on.
In short, something will drain excess currency from the game. When there's too much currency in the game and nothing to spend it on, this leads to inflation.

6. Reforging low-level currency into high-level currency.
For example, 3 Orbs of Transmutation into Greater Orbs of Transmutation. After a couple of weeks, the low-level currency will depreciate, becoming completely useless. Or create new activities where it can be spent.

"

KaosuRyoko#1633 wrote:

"

Soulsniper1313#7576 wrote:

What?

Casuals are not forming rarity parties to abuse the bonus loot. I am not saying remove ALL loot. I am saying remove the BONUS loot. How is that so hard for you to understand?

You play with friends cool. Me too. Guess why I do it. I will tell you, it has NOTHING to do with BONUS loot. The BONUS loot is what we are talking about. The increased rarity multiplied by rarity bots. It is not that hard to understand.

Why do the "Free Xp NO damage NO loot" parties exist? Please explain this SINGLE point and you will see the problem.

Side note, what streamer/s are you referencing? DM? Tri? What other streamer are you referring to? I know for sure you cant be talking about Empy or Ziz....

If you have a full 6 man of all friends enjoying the game together, is that not enough? They need BONUS loot on top of that? You are proving the point again and again it is about the BONUS loot and NOT enjoying the game with friends.

But but but they have 5x the HP! Yea, and you have 6x the damage in a game where you can be strong enough to have 5afkers and still one shot. Again, IT IS ALL ABOUT THE BONUS LOOT.

Remove bonus loot
Remove rarity/cull bots
Remove multi boxing
Remove RMT'ers

Boom, economy is already in a better state. Even with the temple BS from Johnathan. Removing the BONUS loot from parties would have stemmed it some what. Party BONUS only multiplied the problem.

But you went from solo only to I group with friends sometimes. The truth is starting to come out. You want bonus loot to carry someone. That is the problem. You are doing it for the loot and not the enjoyment of playing the game with friends.

You keep emphasizing BONUS, which makes me think we're not on the same page about how this works. Just got the sake of this one narrow question, let's say we have two players, with 0% increased rarity at every possible level. Which do you understand to create more loot, and why:
A) 1 player that kills 2,000 monsters in a map.
B) 2 players that kill 2,000 monsters in a map.


Then you're talking about the leech parties I mentioned before. That's an interesting topic if you've got more specific thoughts around it. That's where the base line math above does break, when the loot isn't shared. Which goes back to the same question of, should we punish the people that aren't doing that, because some people bring in leechers? I'm on board with closing the leeching loophole if there's a fair way to do it that doesn't punish everyone else. But whether we could agree on that at all friends on your answer to the question above.

Then you bring up rarity bots in your checklist, which sounds way more likely to be a root cause than the party bonus. That would be an interesting conversation avenue too, and imo actually make a significant change in the direction that you want. Personally I don't like rarity on gear at all anyways. Outside of amount of and efficiency of party time invested, player rarity is what I pin the lions share of the economic gap on (and meta constraints).


There's a pretty big list of very popular streamers for PoE; out of them Empy is the only big one I know that does party play every league. Many play SSF for reasons for sure, but I'm more referring to the ones like Fubgun or Snoobae that power grind at levels on par with groups. But if you think I'm wrong there by all means shoot me some VoDs showing how much faster groups are at league start. I need more stalling content to consume anyways. :)


Not sure what's confusing about my story. On league start and when I'm in grind mode, I play solo. When I want to make money fast, I'm sitting in my hideout crafting and trading. When my friends are online, usually after the first couple weeks when I'm not as focused on grinding, we usually derp around on alts going slow as shit and over leveling every area. Sometimes we hop on and try to do pinnacle bosses with various numbers of players for fun (boss unique aren't affected by quant/rarity.) None of that is to get more loot, it's just for fun. I don't have them leeching in my maps or anything lame like that. We have experimented with doing rarity bot set ups with various numbers of players, and never found the return anywhere near what I get solo grinding or trading, and it was tedious to set up and coordinate, so we abandoned it because it wasn't worth it.

Yes, yes, you're absolutely right.

You team up just to kill time with friends, not for the extra loot. So what's it to you, making you keep defending the team system?
We're just asking to remove the unfair extra loot in teams. You can still experience the content with your friends and pick up the loot you don't care about.
What are you arguing about?

Oh my god, you're even willing to use your experience using bots as an example to prove the harmlessness of the team system, hahaha!

"

KaosuRyoko#1633 wrote:

You keep emphasizing BONUS, which makes me think we're not on the same page about how this works. Just got the sake of this one narrow question, let's say we have two players, with 0% increased rarity at every possible level. Which do you understand to create more loot, and why:
A) 1 player that kills 2,000 monsters in a map.
B) 2 players that kill 2,000 monsters in a map.


Then you're talking about the leech parties I mentioned before. That's an interesting topic if you've got more specific thoughts around it. That's where the base line math above does break, when the loot isn't shared. Which goes back to the same question of, should we punish the people that aren't doing that, because some people bring in leechers? I'm on board with closing the leeching loophole if there's a fair way to do it that doesn't punish everyone else. But whether we could agree on that at all friends on your answer to the question above.

Then you bring up rarity bots in your checklist, which sounds way more likely to be a root cause than the party bonus. That would be an interesting conversation avenue too, and imo actually make a significant change in the direction that you want. Personally I don't like rarity on gear at all anyways. Outside of amount of and efficiency of party time invested, player rarity is what I pin the lions share of the economic gap on (and meta constraints).


There's a pretty big list of very popular streamers for PoE; out of them Empy is the only big one I know that does party play every league. Many play SSF for reasons for sure, but I'm more referring to the ones like Fubgun or Snoobae that power grind at levels on par with groups. But if you think I'm wrong there by all means shoot me some VoDs showing how much faster groups are at league start. I need more stalling content to consume anyways. :)


Not sure what's confusing about my story. On league start and when I'm in grind mode, I play solo. When I want to make money fast, I'm sitting in my hideout crafting and trading. When my friends are online, usually after the first couple weeks when I'm not as focused on grinding, we usually derp around on alts going slow as shit and over leveling every area. Sometimes we hop on and try to do pinnacle bosses with various numbers of players for fun (boss unique aren't affected by quant/rarity.) None of that is to get more loot, it's just for fun. I don't have them leeching in my maps or anything lame like that. We have experimented with doing rarity bot set ups with various numbers of players, and never found the return anywhere near what I get solo grinding or trading, and it was tedious to set up and coordinate, so we abandoned it because it wasn't worth it.

this guy posted ~60 replies in various team loot bonus topics on the forum in last 5 days. I bet he only wants to play with friends and not even for loot but for fun.

I'm just bored and I like debating and trying to crunch numbers. Really not that deep guys.

"

KaosuRyoko#1633 wrote:

I'm just bored and I like debating and trying to crunch numbers. Really not that deep guys.

I totaly believe you thats why 95% of your posts are about the party play :PP

Yeah, still not supporting this.

The problem is cheaters, extreme MF abuse. The answer should not be to punish the entire party system and every normal casual co-op player because GGG has trouble dealing with those cases.

There are plenty of ways to target the actual abuse. Cap how much rarity can apply in a party. Make party rarity count only once. Make only the killer's rarity matter. Nerf MF interaction specifically in parties. Whatever works. But do not flatten the whole party system with a shovel because some people are using it like a currency printer.

Support roles are also real gameplay. Aura support, curse support, defensive support, damage scaling - that stuff is part of what makes group play interesting.

"

ryszek#5266 wrote:

"

KaosuRyoko#1633 wrote:

I'm just bored and I like debating and trying to crunch numbers. Really not that deep guys.

I totaly believe you thats why 95% of your posts are about the party play :PP

It's the current topic with interesting math. But feel free to think what you want. It's a lot easier to assume nefarious intent and disregard opinions than to actually support your position with quantifiable evidence. It's OK, I get it. It would be super interesting to see Sirgog or ConnerConverse or CrimsonCasts so a deep dive into this and bust out the spreadsheets and graphs. I could be convinced I'm wrong if the numbers are there.

"

KaosuRyoko#1633 wrote:

"

ryszek#5266 wrote:

"

KaosuRyoko#1633 wrote:

I'm just bored and I like debating and trying to crunch numbers. Really not that deep guys.

I totaly believe you thats why 95% of your posts are about the party play :PP

It's the current topic with interesting math. But feel free to think what you want. It's a lot easier to assume nefarious intent and disregard opinions than to actually support your position with quantifiable evidence. It's OK, I get it. It would be super interesting to see Sirgog or ConnerConverse or CrimsonCasts so a deep dive into this and bust out the spreadsheets and graphs. I could be convinced I'm wrong if the numbers are there.

idk what you are talking about, i just looked at ALL yout posts from 5 days and 95% is about party loot. Its just obvious you benefit from party loot.

The party play mechanic should not be abused. Since you are unable to solve the issue of players using cheats or bots, you should consider addressing it from this angle to alleviate unfair party play situations (such as magic find groups or one player running six accounts at once).

The league mechanic involving the Incursion temple this season should never have existed in its current form, and it should have been nerfed long ago. Yet you made no adjustments throughout the entire league. This mechanic is not enjoyed by all players, but its rewards are so high that everyone feels forced to run it (personally, I don't find it fun at all).

Also, some players barely do any mapping at all — they just party up to farm gold through carry services or flip items, which affects the economy. Whether this needs adjustment is up to you.
I just want this game to get better and better. Thank you for your hard work.