Removal of map types might be the actual reason of chaos becoming worthless

To start - I do not like POE2 atlas implementation, this is the main reason I do not care much about that game. it seems forced, needlessly restrictive and rng based. and i hate content rng gating.

this patch we got first half of POE2 atlas in POE1 - you drop 'tier tokens' and are 'free' to pick any map you want.


what it has to do with chaos/div ratio?

simple: how do you roll your maps now? you buy them pre-rolled via regex.

lack of map types means that ANY 8-mod map is good. no longer you are limited to non-Cells, non-Bramble Valleys etc. this multiplied the supply side by a factor of 50 or so.

with how many corrupted T16 maps you can drop per one map, there is no reason to ever roll maps yourself. primary chaos sink (along map device mods) - rolling maps - is GONE.

it is cheaper and faster to just get them from async with regex.

for the more end-game'y among us - the same applies to T16.5 but ofc, scaled as these maps are rarer than regular T16. still - why roll them if you can buy a perfect corrupted 8 mod instantly and sellers list dozens of them


there is very little reason to EVER roll your maps yourself, there is such an absurd abundance of already rolled maps.

T17s are smaller factor - firstly because not many players ran them in the first place - they sold for good money and interacting with (luckily removed now) some mods was unpleasant.

also it seems that mirage adds time sink to the map. you get 1.5x the content for the price of one map, so even less pressure on rolling your maps, less chaos used

There's no kirac bench craft, this was the primary chaos sink that was removed from the game.

Astrolabes kinda replaced that but this is different, it's a tradeable item that makes those C's change hands instead of actually using them.

Chaos itself is not a very useful crafting currency in for itself. Perhaps divines should be traded against alterations.

With alterations being made much more rare, about the same drop rate as chaos orbs. Cos this is a spammable currency that is in good demand, but it's a little too common currently, it gets filtered out on day 3-4 on SC trade league.

Map device cost was not that important i think - it was at most 10c per map

rolling T17/16.5s to hit big %more multipliers while avoiding the bs mods took WAY more than that. unless you played one of the very few builds that could just ignore it all (great design btw). main issue was that the GOOD %more multipliers were the bs mods and you had to hit the correct bs mods..

i distinctly remember that even in previous patches it was actually reasonable to skip rolling maps altogether and hunt the trade with regex. you got what you wanted, exactly what you wanted for less and in less time

i had obnoxious T17s (trio) that pretty much rolled inc AOE 20 times in a row and on that boss AOE is not cool

that consumed chaos orbs like crazy

nowadays? T16/16.5 you buy from trade, no rolling required (the only downside is no maven chisel). and T17s kind of lost most of their bs mods so you can hit safe map much, much quicker and in less c


i will underline my point: new system guarantees that T16/16.5 map that drops 8mod corrupted and you can run is 'perfect' - it has the layout you want and you never drop duds.
previously half of the well rolled maps were never ran because who enjoys Cells or Bramble Valley. these maps did not sell that hot neither

crafting maps was a massive chaos sink that is now mostly gone because a well crafted corrupted 8 mod has 120/120 chance of being the layout you want instead of 10/120 chance to layout you accept. that generates an enourmous pile of already well rolled maps and invalidates map rolling entirely

So, tldr, chaos orbs are less valuable (market value) because chaos orbs are less valuable (intrinsic value). Now what?


As a side note, my main chaos sink this league were strongboxes. Abundance of chaos + strongbox qol + mirage operative boxes = win

now what?

chaos orbs use case list is probably the longest of all currencies. so the problem is not with its intrinsic value - utility is there

problem is, with time GGG introduced more effective/hassle free equivalents to said utility

chaos spam items - gambling/tree printing + essence/fossils
map rolling - drop 40 corrupted maps per map, pick the best, vendor the turds
benchcraft - remains, but how often do you use it?
fixed maintenance costs (map device) - gone


POE needs 'delve treatment' in other departments. alternatives being better than the 'main thing' is a problem and chaos<>map rolling is maybe not that obvious but it is there on the list and imho has very far reaching consequences


chaos would explode in value if:

- scarab for 8mod maps is deleted (you still can get them via vaal'ing of from special events like corrupted cartobox)
- gamble for scarabs at NPC
- enkindling/thatotherflaskorb deleted, replaced with chaos
- T16.5 can only be rare

Nah, the mapping system isn’t the reason Chaos Orb value dropped. If anything, all the QoL changes were long requested by the community, and things like less friction, instant trade, easier mapping with less clicking were exactly what players asked for. I guess some players really do love to blame PoE2 for everything. Even with the natural outcome of lower Chaos value, there really should not be any complaining about it.

Atlas progression and map access have never felt better. If you want to spam a very specific map, you can just bulk buy your preferred rolled maps and chain them back to back with the layout you actually enjoy. You are no longer forced to sift through random layouts you do not care about, and sustaining maps on your own is just as smooth.

What actually hurt the value of Chaos Orbs is mostly economic. There has been an increase in overall currency drops this league, especially in lower tier currency where Chaos Orbs sit, which directly inflates their supply. On top of that, small but consistent Chaos sinks like map device mods are gone, and trade friction being removed through instant trade reduces how often Chaos is needed as a flexible intermediary. Finally, pricing has shifted heavily into clean Divine breakpoints instead of fractional listings where Chaos used to bridge imperfect values.

Together, these changes reduce Chaos Orbs from a flexible middle currency into something far more situational. Even if some players do not notice it directly, the role they used to fill in smoothing trade inefficiencies has been steadily removed.

So the point isn’t that mapping got worse or that QoL changes were harmful. It’s that the system got changed in a way that naturally reduces Chaos demand.

That said, the fix is actually pretty straightforward. Remove 8 mod scarabs, make red tier maps only craftable via Chaos Orbs in the same fashion as T17 maps, so they can only be crafted with Chaos, Vaal, and Delirium Orbs. Suddenly there would be a much larger demand for Chaos Orbs again.

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sidtherat#1310 wrote:

chaos orbs use case list is probably the longest of all currencies. so the problem is not with its intrinsic value - utility is there

But you said it yourself, the removal of map device crafts and T17 rolling removed 2 of the main chaos sinks from the game. The other use cases haven't been very popular in a long time.

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sidtherat#1310 wrote:

POE needs 'delve treatment' in other departments. alternatives being better than the 'main thing' is a problem and chaos<>map rolling is maybe not that obvious but it is there on the list and imho has very far reaching consequences

Sorry but I still don't see what those consequences are. I don't think you have pointed them out, except for the fact that chaos has a lower market value. What's so special about the chaos orb that it needs to be kept relevant? The only case I can imagine where someone would care about chaos market value is when you are a standard player and sit on 10s of thousands of chaos. But the div/ex swap has shown how much disregard GGG has for standard economy (rightfully so, imo).

I don't think the delve comparison is valid either. Delve is a game mechanic with gameplay and unique rewards associated with it. Chaos orb is just a generic currency item. Apples and orangutans.

well, the entire game has been built around chaos being what it was - a 'standard' currency. with its value guaranteed by there being enough of 'sinks' over time AND the reward structure that matched that (recipes, cards, rewards from chests etc etc)

right now GGG changed the 'sinks' but left everything else in place.

the result is something that makes games like POE less appealing - stratification of economy/ies. you have the 'chaos pleb' and 'div chads'. and they have ZERO reasons to talk to eachother

if you foster this situation and make the gap too wide you end up being poor chaos-pleb until you RNG luck into something that invites you into div-chad club (last phrecia i DID NOT luck into anything till penultimate day. it was.. deeply unfun)

you wont 'make it' with step by step effort, you no longer can get into big game with chaos recipe or whatever - if you dont have divs, you mostly cannot buy stuff that can make you get divs

sure, you can ssf and play unholy amount of time with few builds that require no gear but.. thats not a game but a job then.


the game works MUCH better when the ratio for divs is 100-200/1 not 800/1 because it was made to be so over last 10 years.

div/ex change was trivial in comparison to removal of chaos as a bedrock currency

i do not think that selling unID belts for divines is the good replacement for a healthy wealth accumulation curve

You don't need to "luck into" something to get divines. You can farm all sorts of things that sell for divines in bulk. Take Harvest: Low investment viable, very steady and predictable income per map, liquidates super easily with the currency exchange. Stacked decks, same thing. Catalysts, oils, fossils, all farmable with little to no investment and convertible directly into divines at the currency exchange. No chaos necessary.

from the standpoint of someone who knows what builds are turds and actively avoids them - aka play surefire stuff - yeah, right.

however i think you overestimate how much of this farmable stuff you get while progressing your atlas. T4 rare map will drop you nothing - harvest it is like 200 lifeforce per map and if you are still weak, youll die a lot

the wealth accumulation that you cannot prop with few targeted chaos recipes to get that 'good enough weapon' or 'that one ring that solves all my build's problems' is very, very rough: no wealth, no power to generate wealth.

it all solves once you get your first divine or you drop early Ivory Tower or Prototype.
i never understood people's comments on how rough league start can be - because i actually had great luck each time. except last Phrecia, when i had no tinks, no good uniques, f.. nothing and had to do what you suggest - get by selling scraps

the issue is - you get several thousands of lifeforce in juiced T16, you get 200 in T4. i eventually made it, but that was very unfun and took FAR longer than usual.

previously you skipped that part with chaos from sanctum, heist or chaos recipe. this league it was similar until chaos rapidly dropped in value.

my Breach start was 2xPBoDissipation, 1xKBoC and VSoMamba, on one character. i was set for the league before lvl80

i wonder what will happen next league - the wealth curve progression (the supply mechanics designed by ggg) still assumes chaos is the bedrock currency