Statement from the creator of "its time to ban streamers using exploits"

I was the creator of the mega thread that was deleted. I didnt post anything after that because i was sent to probation because it was considered an inflamtory thread + i was explaining how to do an exploit. But i am not here to complain about it. I may not aggree but i accept it.

My goal with this new thread

Explain my point of view of how things went, and settle things.

Why people got so heated up by the holten exploit

In my opinion, this was the the last drop on a glass full of water. You can call the holten situation whatever you want: exploit, non intended interaction, bug, whatever. The thing is : this wasnt how the mechanic was designed to be played. And this kind of thing happens every league.

1- someone finds something that isnt working as intended.
2- ppl exploit it to get a huge advantage on other players
3- that bug/exploit/interaction is patched
4- people who did it wins a lot, those who didnt get fucked.
5- Nobody receives punishment
6- Ppl start looking for more things to exploit.
7- everyone starts to think that finding ways to "be smart and cheat the game" is just "being efficient"

And a lot of players are tired of this. We just want a game where you earn money because you play better, or plan better, or invest more time on it. And not because you Discovered how to skip the progression. The holten thing is just a reflex of an old problem.

Why the holten thing was "exploit"

Several non intended interactions and even a possible bug were used to achieve economic advantage.

1- Reseting instances are allowed, but the vaal beacon was in holten was always too close to the waypoint, allowing league mechanic spam in a way that cleary wasnt intended.

2- usually its not useful to spam a low lvl league mechanic for endgame content. But the vaal temple crystal coud be usued with the same value as a t15 one ( this do not happens with any of the other poe2 league). This made playing the game useless (maps, trials, etc), because spamming a campaign map and skipping the whole game was better than anything else.

3- to keep doin this, you could not level up. And usually this is impossible, because you cant lose XP before you reach maps. But inside the temple you could die and lose XP even before you reach maps (possible bug), making ppl die on pourpose to keep spamming the strat.

4- this combination was so weird and anti gaming that is cleary a non intended interaction. It skipped the whole concept of the game (progression, maps, leveling, etc)

5- its way different than using light radius and t1 maps to get faster crystals. THAT is a clever efficient farming (you use waystones, you need to find the beacon, you make clever use of "light radius", a stat that most ppl thought it was useless".

About the vaal temple itself

Its the BEST mechanic ever released in poe2. You need to think a lot to build your temple, you need to invest time, and the rewards are INSANE. It was everything this game needed to run away from the same old mechanic style " monsters will spawn, you kill, you get loot, and you need to do it as fast as you can". Now ppl were spending hours thinking about how to build a temple ( and the time effort worth it!!)

About the streamers (If you are one, please read this)

Some streamers got a lot of hate these days, and others were sad to see ppl harassing them.

In my opinion, the harassment aint right.

Still, its important to understand why people got really mad about streamers doing the holten thing.

Streamers are a HUGE part of the community. Ppl can say whatever they want , but i learned to play this game watching streams with tips, crafts, builds etc. Ppl like captainlance, palestron, poeguy are awnsome to the game. You and all others are the MAIN reason why ppl can decode this complex game, and start actually liking it and eventually learn to walk on their own legs. Streamers are also guardians of the game. Devs listen to your complaints. You have the Power to change direction of things. Deep respect for you guys.

But power and fame brings responsibility. Some ppl watch you and take your word as truth. And more important. You are an example to the community. You represent the game and the players.

That why when you teach people to use morally questionable means to achieve wealth in the game, ppl will be sad, mad, angry.

But ppl used to do morally questionable means in arpg before

Yes. But that does not change how we look into the situation. A bad thing is a bad thing. Humanity used to hang people in City square a few hundred years ago. But we got better. Maybe ppl dont want to play a game where finding ways to exploit it is acceptable. Maybe things changed. And its good to change bad habits.

About ppl throwing rage ate GGG and the game itself

Dont do it, that will bring nothing useful to the game or the community.

We all have one thing in common ( streamers, players, non exploiters, exploiters, GGG) : We fucking love this game

Its okay to discuss things, points of view, etc. But we cant let this destroy the game or we as a community.

Saying we wont play the game or bomb review it brings nothing good to the table. I really trust GGG work, i think they are progressing amazingly this game. We are here to help polish the flaws. Help build how the game should be. Never to destroy it.

That post lived long enough, and got deleted because prob things got out of control.

How do we make it matter?

By being respectful, otherwise WE will become the new wrong guys. Our idea was heard. GGG changed stuff. I bet streamers understood the rage ( even if some do not aggree with it), and ppl will think twice before using this kind of content on streams.

What i expect from GGG

PPL need to stop asking for league resets or temple wipes. What is done is done. Lets not ask impossible things.

What we need : clear statement from what is permitted in the game. And where are we going next.

- Do GGG and players wants this to be a game where you Rush to find exploits to get advantage fast before they are patched?

Otherwise

- It would be Nice to get an announcement that from now on, abuses will lead to bans. (Which i prefer, but, its my opinion)

And remember. Nobody is pissed because some ppl are Rich and others are poor. Ppl are pissed because this happened because of exploited shortcuts instead of player dedication and skill.

Peace, happy new year for everybody. And stay united.

Bro this whole game is find and abuse whatever you can to get ahead...

They legit did build showcases then proceeded to nerf those same builds they showcased because they really didn't intend for that xD

Giving us access to all support gems between skills then reworking them for season 4 because they realized how broken it was

This whole game has so many flaws, what your making an entire thread about, 1 singular mechanic, thats just the tip of the iceberg, this game has so many internal flaws and kinks thats going to hinder trade leagues for a very long time, which is why everyones begging them to buff SSF xD

Let us all have an enjoyable experience, experience what the game has to offer all of its items and glory, in the ways we want to whether it be trade or SSF, but noooooo :(

GGG needs to find some middle ground between hardcore no lifers who do the same piece of content(like temples) 8 hours straight 5 days a week, and casuals who hop on after work for a few hours, or on the weekend/days off when they have freetime, buffing SSF would be some good middle ground, adding ways to target farm and get items more effectively, rework or remove rarity as a whole aswell.

Also our pleas in this feedback channel are pointless btw.

My entire issue with this is GGG was not intelligent enough to foresee letting the temple level scale to the player instead of the zone. Holten is 60. No mob in the temple should have been above 60 and the drops should have been based on that. Meaning no divines. No high end items. It was really that simple. I had not done a temple in a while and was in a tier 1 map starting out and all of a sudden in the temple I was getting tier 14-15 maps dropping. Clearly way above what should have been possible if it was coded correctly. Johnathan proudly proclaimed he programmed it himself. Well if this isn't proof that needs a full stop from now on I don't know what else to say.

Your issue with Holten in itself is not correct either. If it had been the same "exploit" but someone chose to do it on a different map, is it still and exploit in your eyes? Holten was just the most efficient way to run the temples. When you make the league mechanic and entire new map that was tiered way above the content you completed to get to it, that is an obvious problem.

Outside of something being bugged, what purpose is there to a zone reset? Why can it be done instantly and unlimited? Because it was a POE1 thing to farm that one straight line zone for xp? What use is it in POE2? Again, put a timer on it. One reset (to allow for fixing a bugged drop or something) then 15 minutes minimum. To fix the mechanic, once you get to maps, just let it open once per map. So the player has to use a waystone, clear to it, then access it. Again, not complicated ideas here that somehow eluded Johnathan.

I understand the frustration. I still have yet to find a single divine. I did not partake in this in anyway. But either way the market was screwed up for anyone not playing crazy amounts anyway. The RMT and bots alone still running rampant in the game are proof they cant fix the real stuff killing the market no matter what happens in a league mechanic. GGG just needs to be better. End of story.

I still think a league reset would be good. Once they figured out some quirks with the league mechanic. And fixed some loopholes.

Regarding punishment of people. If there are no punishments for this. I gotta be honest i might consider not playing the game at all. It just doesnt feel right to support a developer who is so inconsistent in their actions.

We probably shouldn't be punishing people when it requires an entire essay to describe why something they did is wrong.

GGG almost certainly designed the temple to have a higher than normal reward system, as well as easy access though the campaign and zone resetting, that's why level capping was implemented. The oversight was in temple XP loss during the campaign. So, the only point you made that matters is 3.

What people need to understand here is that currency generating optimization will always exist. This idea that you can punish out this behavior is naive, especially when it comes to engaging within ethical grey areas. This isn't RMT or duping or implementing unapproved third party software. The great majority of players would be giddy if they had found this strategy first and could keep it to themselves but now being on the receiving end of the economic disaster has everyone incessantly moralizing.

GGG made a mistake, it's their oversight. The level capping was a half-measure. No one is getting banned. You don't deserve blood. The fix here is a company taking accountability and remedial action, like more stringent testing, more testers, more oversight.

no reset, allow the expoliters to play their own league
we need fresh economy with fresh league where our drops can actually matter to the trade

0.4 is like 0.3, a dumpster fire and a financial decisions.

But GGG, from a company perspective, does not care as long as revenue flows. They tapped into a new player base with POE 2 and do not wish to scare away potential spenders. They are soft-ish, except for RMT/Bots/3rd-party-software, then your gone immediatly.

Pushing a new class and 3 ascendencies rather than focusing on endgame.
It feels like a present with nice wrapping paper but the box is empty.

I do regret buying EA and wish I would have had more restrain back then.
My good faith turned into this awkward feeling of disdain-ish scepticism.

"

CheshuR#1175 wrote:

We probably shouldn't be punishing people when it requires an entire essay to describe why something they did is wrong.

GGG almost certainly designed the temple to have a higher than normal reward system, as well as easy access though the campaign and zone resetting, that's why level capping was implemented. The oversight was in temple XP loss during the campaign. So, the only point you made that matters is 3.

What people need to understand here is that currency generating optimization will always exist. This idea that you can punish out this behavior is naive, especially when it comes to engaging within ethical grey areas. This isn't RMT or duping or implementing unapproved third party software. The great majority of players would be giddy if they had found this strategy first and could keep it to themselves but now being on the receiving end of the economic disaster has everyone incessantly moralizing.

GGG made a mistake, it's their oversight. The level capping was a half-measure. No one is getting banned. You don't deserve blood. The fix here is a company taking accountability and remedial action, like more stringent testing, more testers, more oversight.

I understand your point of view. Still, we have a difference in how we observe the situation.

You see optimization, i see abusive use of non intended interactions.

For me, run easy maps with light radius is efficient league content farming. Using the snake temple build strat is efficient farm. Using campaign resets to get 5x more crystals because GGG forgot the holten map keeps the beacon near waypoint + map reset spam + XP loss bug + league farmed at lvl 60 turning being used at lvl 90 ( dont forget ppl were even paying low lvl chars to do it for them), for me, is not efficient farming. Its just taking an opportunity using something that is a clear mistake from the devs and will be patched.

Im an online player veteran, most online games punishes this kind of behavior, and ppl usually are afraid to use things that are clearly non inteneded interactions to get an advantage in those games. In poe history we had cases similar to this where ppl got banned. We also had some cases where ppl were not.

The thing is. What do you want in next league? Study the game to be better? Or spend time searching for a devs mistake to exploit and skip the game design?

Most ppl complaining here could do the holten thing if they wanted to. But we did not. Because it didnt felt right. Whats the porpouse of playing a game like that? Gettin rich exploiting flaws is a real win?

Well, that's the issue, isn't it?

If you can see it my way but it's a difference of perspective, then it's probably not appropriate to punish people when the verdict is out.

This is the feedback forum, so the discussion is obviously around remedial action, that's the real point here. First, the economy isn't being rolled back, the "exploiters" aren't being split from the gen-pop either. Regardless of whether or not players are punished, one of the fixes must necessarily be further and more extensive testing. That leaves only the question of punishment. As I said before though, this is a grey area and I think it's not at all appropriate to be banning people for something that's even arguably an exploit, plausible deniability certainly exists here.

Would the game be wonderful and gum drops and candy canes if there were no exploits? Yeah, of course. But let's come back to reality here. Demand higher standards from GGG and save the moral high-horsing for the actual egregious, clear-cut exploits. As far as the economy in 0.4, that genie isn't going back into that bottle. Yes, it sucks ass. I didn't run the temple strat/exploit and quit shortly after. It's maddening, it's frustrating and all of that. But we shouldn't be banning people in this instance, we should be asking GGG what actions they are going to take internally to prevent these economy wrecking exploits from even existing.

"

Johnathan proudly proclaimed he programmed it himself.

Wow, this suddenly explains everything. It makes so much sense.