"PoE2 deserves BETTER!" - Neversink's take was based.
" No it's not. That's when the game ends, because I have no reason to get stronger, because I'm already lawn mowering the screen. I have played D2 for over 2 decades and never had a character strong enough to do that in Hell Cows / Baal Runs / Chaos Sanctuary. That is thousands upon thousands of hours of the game never being a loot pinata vampire survivors clone. Would I eventually turn the game into a lawn mower simulator if I farmed for thousands of hours? Sure. Is that the "end game" of a D2 character? Sure. Do you start the game doing that? NO. I don't know why modern ARPG games think that the game is supposed to immediately start with you as a God, because it's not. Any game that does that has failed at designing their game and taken an easy out (not having to actually balance or play test their game, not having to actually design creatures with real spells and abilities that are threatening, etc). Is this just people being accustomed to AAA games that are mass produced yearly slop cutting as many corners as possible just to get the next big release? I think it is, honestly. The game should not become this lawn mower simulator until you are hundreds and hundreds of hours into your character. it CERTAINLY should not be happening before the campaign even ends - which is is the case in every modern ARPG and a massive failure in game design. I'd be embarrassed as a game developer if players were Gods before even finishing my campaign, honestly. Last edited by ShiyoKozuki#4168 on Dec 10, 2025, 2:58:39 PM
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" I believe you probably misunderstood some of the things I said or possibly how I meant them so let me go over this quickly. When you say you argue players build with abilities in mind for specific situations you are right that there are very rare cases it happens but it is very rare. It used to happen more in the past but these days it's very rare because no one wants to press more keys or do gem swaps. Now you are also correct that the reason it isn't done is because the game is not made to force players to do that however the reason why the game isn't balanced that way is because if you do that, how many people do you think you'll have playing? It would just be a repeat of 0.2 or worse and that is because it works against the core concepts of the genre. When I spoke about efficiency I don't mean currency per hour or how fast you clear a map because there is more involved than the build like for example, the person behind the keyboard. What I mean by efficiency is how fast do you kill enemies and how simple it is to kill said enemies. In this case, a build that uses a single skill to deal with everything and which would kill what is on the screen by simply clicking once is the efficiency that people want because it builds towards the power fantasy. Speaking of the power fantasy and core concepts, you are right that progression exists but let's take a look at how the ARPG were, and how they are now because you see how it is evolving. D1 was much slower and methodical, you had this kind of dance to a degree and while it was well received, it was the first steps of the ARPG. As we moved forward we had the game evolve but it always evolved towards getting faster kill times, more loot explosions and so on. This is not to say there weren't ARPGs that tried to do it differently, but anytime a slower more methodical one appeared what happened? For the most part it went into obscurity because people didn't want that in an ARPG, it went against the core concepts. PoE for that matter was the first ARPG to improve upon it. Really give power and efficiency to the players and why it became the top dog of ARPGs. Some might say D4 is the top dog if we're talking about sales alone but they live off their name, not the quality of the product they present much like WoW lives off it's early success and not of what it is today. So the evolution of ARPGs has already shown us that the way forwards is not slowing down, it's not taking your time, it's not having a dance. The way forward is make sure the game is about blasting through enemies, getting loot and getting stronger. I will however agree that generally speaking this only goes so far as the point of trivializing the game, after that gaining power feels meaningless and that is why pinnacle content exists, so that power gain never feels meaningless even though I personally do not care for pinnacle content. Now for a few extra points. People don't just think from the perspective of how things affect their loot acquisition, it factors in of course but it's never the solo reason. Most players don't even play very fast and efficiently even if the build itself is efficient but the build being efficient is important because the fun, the enjoyment that comes from playing the game is impacted by whether or not you feel like you are the main character (it is a power fantasy after all). Also your exaggeration to prove the point that simply click generate currency, click kill the entire map is not a good while it is the most effective is correct and that is because at that point you aren't playing a game anymore. The point is still to be effective at killing and feeling the power fantasy from destroying everything with a click but you do have to be present to witness your action upon others for it to feel real, however it doesn't changes the fact that you do need to be killing the enemies like they were insects, vermin to be crushed under your boots. Again, it's a power fantasy and a power fantasy isn't without the power element. As for having to work for your power vs being given the power this is probably a debate for ages which 30 different people will give 30 different answers as it is a lot more nuanced. The question here is, at what point is power worked for and is power given? To you, maybe power worked for is you having to have a hard time dealing with enemies for a month having to do the dance until you finally got to the point where you blast them. For me the idea of working for power is less about how fast I kill enemies in a map and more about how fast I kill a boss. Destroying everything in a map fast is very important in these games, you may consider it power given but I don't. Map enemies should provide some threat, not annoyance and them refusing to die or requiring a tango to die is annoyance not threat. This is why monsters still manage to attack even with the insane clears we can get and they can also kill your character but overall the threat posed by them should be relatively low because once more, power fantasy isn't without power. Bosses are where you truly measure power that has been acquired in how fast you kill them and how well you survive. All in all, I don't believe too much in the idea that power is given. Your power comes from your level ups which you worked for by killing enemies and from your gear which again you worked for by killing your enemies. Given power would be if you could just decide to spawn at level 100 and spawn in any gear you want. Even in the worst case scenario where enemies are a joke that pose no threat regardless of what they do, if you have to put in the time grinding to get more power you are still working for it but of course, I'm not saying it should be so. With that said however, PoE 1 had the best player retention rate when players had the most power just from leveling and even map starting gear was enough to beat almost all content in the game back 5 years ago so it does goes to show that a game towards the easier side is also more popular than towards the harder side because the power fantasy is present,. it just means its available to more people. "The heavens burned
The stars cried out And under the ashes of infinity Hope, scarred and bleeding breathed it's last." |
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ARPG's have not evolved, they have de-evolved since D2.
This current iteration of ARPG's is the worst yet, and they only continue to get worse. This genre had POE2 as it's savior and GGG failed. They just regressed back into a slot machine simulator like all the rest. Last edited by ShiyoKozuki#4168 on Dec 10, 2025, 3:31:47 PM
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" "I have played D2 for over 2 decades and never had a character strong enough to do that in Hell Cows / Baal Runs / Chaos Sanctuary." Lol, then what were you doing. This is clearly a you issue. |
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"You could like, just play D2. |
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" I remember QA with Mark/Jonathan (I believe it was Ziz) asked them why not make monster slower so the players are actually able to do the combos. They said making monster slower is out of the question. |
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" My king |
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" You could like, just play the other 8 blow up screen slot machine simulators. D2 is old, I want a new game. Why am I not allowed that but you're allowed to have an entire genre of the EXACT same game? Last edited by ShiyoKozuki#4168 on Dec 10, 2025, 9:40:31 PM
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" Hey, thanks for the reply. 😊 You explain your points very clearly, and I appreciate that. And yes, don’t worry about using quotes if the context isn’t needed. I followed along just fine. It may be a little while before you hear back from me since the new league is about to start, but I’ll try to keep this response brief. I’m enjoying the discussion and respect how you’re explaining your position. The main themes of your reply involve (1) your view that PoE is popular because of how it balances player power to achieve power fantasy, and (2) your definitions of efficiency and power fantasy themselves. So I’ll stay focused on those two topics. Path of Exile is popular because of how it is balanced This is a recurring theme in these discussions, and it is not an especially effective way to evaluate the merits of one gameplay style over another. However, you dedicate a lot of emphasis to why someone like myself should accept PoE’s current direction on the grounds of popularity. My view is that the connection between PoE’s popularity and the evolution of its endgame is tenuous. I think it requires being highly selective, and somewhat reductive, about the reasons PoE grew its player base. A note on being selective. PoE2 was advertised before release as a new direction for the franchise, with a stronger focus on engaging combat. Since release, and across every league, PoE2’s numbers have consistently eclipsed PoE1’s, regularly doubling its active players each league, and retaining those players despite having a minimal endgame, no MTX challenge rewards, and being paid, not free. That alone carries major implications for any appeal to PoE1’s popularity. I don't think those numbers are controversial, so what do they suggest about the prefered direction of the genre? I believe that once GGG completes PoE2’s endgame content, makes it free to play, and begins offering challenge rewards, its playerbase will only grow. Conversely, PoE1's heavy emphasis on AoE clear-centric power fantasy, may diminish as PoE2’s new direction becomes the more popular. Another popular ARPG that does not share PoE1’s definition of power fantasy is Diablo 2. D2R maintains a steady ~50k players, and the community mod Project Diablo 2 has driven a significant resurgence. Diablo 2 remains extremely popular 25 years after release. And if you weren’t aware, PoE was originally inspired by Diablo 2; Chris and Jonathan have mentioned this on many occasions. Early adopters of PoE like myself saw PoE as the spiritual successor to D2. While Diablo 3 pivoted toward a more cartoonish and empowerment-focused design philosophy, PoE promised a return to dark horror and punishing gameplay in the tradition of D2. D2’s resurgence, with its 25 year old graphics, is not because it embraced a blasty AoE-clear meta. It grew because it expanded its mechanical depth, complexity, and endgame while preserving its roots. You likely know who Mathil is. If you’re unfamiliar with Diablo 2, you should give this a watch and pay close attention to the combat, especially in later-game areas. These are the roots that inspired PoE and shaped the expectations of its earliest audience: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F__YT9zof-s What I’m trying to convey is that we shouldn’t interpret raw player numbers too quickly or too simplistically. PoE grew very early with much slower, more methodical combat. But what set it apart was its ever-increasing unprecedented depth of systems and fascinating character build potential. The blasty late-game meta was not what made it popular, and for many players, seeing that gameplay is actually discouraging if it’s their first exposure to the game. There are other numerical indicators too. Dawn of the Hunt exceeded PoE1’s most popular league, Kalguur, and had similar retention. Dawn of the Hunt was never going to reach the hype of the initial 0.1 launch date, and had a relatively low 'day-one' player count, relative to the following league Abyssal. This is telling because the people starting in that league couldn't have anticipated how the monsters were balanced, which was supposedly the main reason it was unpopular. Incidentally, that patch offered barely any new content, with the wisps being a bit sad. It’s also interesting (though not necessarily causal) that player counts began to decline after GGG reduced monster life dramatically. This contradicts what someone would assume by reading the online discourse. We, the forum-posting minority, are not representative of most of the player-base. As PoE1 expanded its systems and content, it attracted new players, but many players also criticized it for becoming "too blasty." This is a major reason why PoE1 players were looking forward to the changes promised in PoE2. Not all of course, but many. Diablo 2, which has much 'slower' gameplay in terms of how monsters are killed specifically (movement in D2 is fast), does not have this internal community conflict about whether they should increase the AoE clear to be like PoE1. Their sentiment is closer to: “over our dead body.” There is much more to why people play ARPGs than endgame clear speed. PoE’s appeal comes from its systems depth, emergent builds, and its inheritance of the Diablo 2 audience. I don’t think interpreting player counts is a productive way to argue for or against a particular style of gameplay. Game motivations are more complex than that. Power earned Vs Power given I don't disagree with your description of earning power through time investment. But I place more emphasis on 'the struggle' as an important part of earning power, especially early on in progression. In my opinion, endgame power levels are attained too easily, which undermines that sense of it being earned. Power Fantasy & Efficiency Thank you for clarifying your definitions. As I understand it: Efficiency: Killing enemies as fast as possible, with as little player input as possible. Power fantasy: The fulfillment of that efficiency, up to the limit where you still need to move your character and personally witness the enemies dying. Something along those lines. I disagree with this definition as the ideal for an ARPG. In my view, it’s an overly narrow conception of fun and not representative of what defines the genre. We should discuss this part more. Thanks again for your reply. I enjoy reading your posts. As I mentioned earlier, I’ll be busy with 0.4, so you may not hear back immediately. See you later. 👋 Last edited by WhisperSlade#0532 on Dec 11, 2025, 7:00:17 AM
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" I really don't understand what's 'king' here. It just explains why GGG is still a small independent studio with moderate financial backing and why they keep doing all the wrong things they've done in the past. King of what? Can you play as a shapeshifting character using wolf form and, say, something like a shield wall, beat t16 maps efficiently enough to compete with other players? No, you can't. Because you have to find your way through the old-school, hand-written, completely static code that GGG gives you. What is this, 1990? I'm not saying it's bad or unplayable, and I really enjoy PoE2. But people need to understand that the RPG community is constantly facing low wages because developers can't get their finances in order. I believe that if they had better conditions, they would create a much more interactive game instead of a game where it's "do you want to deal fire damage, go northwest, or just quit the game immediately." Neden yaşıyorsun?
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