Why ES is so far ahead of Armour [MATH]

Here's some quick math to put things in perspective...

When you take a hit for X physical damage:

* If you have 10*X in armour, you will reduce the hit by 50%
* If you have 1*X in armour, you will reduce the hit by 9%

For Armour based characters:
If your life is 3000, you need 60,000 armour to survive a 6000 point physical hit.

For ES based characters:
You need 6000 ES to survive a 6000 point physical hit.

It's far easier to get 6000 ES than it is to get 60,000 armour.

Defection based characters:
To match deflection, Armour characters need to have 6.67*X in total armour.

For a 6000 point physical hit, you'd need 40,000 armour to get 40% damage reduction. This is only a valid comparison if you can get 100% deflection (which I don't know factually).

Conclusions
Armour is inferior to ES when it comes to big physical hits.

EDIT #1: changed subject and revised conclusions based upon feedback.

EDIT #2: A weakness for ES is its susceptibility to repeated chip damage (unlike armour which mitigates chip damage at 90%). However you can get insane regeneration on ES and force the recovery with Convalescence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcYV3TI24P8 - do your homework brother

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Soritas#0891 wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcYV3TI24P8 - do your homework brother

Did you watch the video?

The same math I presented is literally shown 8:30 into the vid lol.

Carnarius (who is one of my favorite streamers that I sub to) goes on to explain how to work around it by taking "phys taken as..." mods. That's no longer armour brother, that's armour plus other shit.

It is impressive that he has 75k armour in the vid -- but that's because he playing titan. I don't think you really want to say "Armour is ok only if you play Titan". Funny enough, Carn says this at 32:10 lol.

So a fok-ton of armour on titan, plus 40% phys taken as lightning, plus 5% phys taken as fire.... or .... you can just get 10k ES and not worry about it.

this math breaks down when you make incoming damage a variable. afaik armor's effectiveness is exponentially proportional to inverse damage incoming.

also I would title the OP as 'Why ES is OP [no diminishing returns]'

any other defense has diminishing returns, except ES. its hard to be surprised that its strong.

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AintCare#6513 wrote:

this math breaks down when you make incoming damage a variable. afaik armor's effectiveness is exponentially proportional to inverse damage incoming.

also I would title the OP as 'Why ES is OP [no diminishing returns]'

any other defense has diminishing returns, except ES. its hard to be surprised that its strong.

Deflection doesn't have diminishing returns either (40% is 40%) although monster accuracy does go up at higher levels which works against deflection. There's a really nice passive node that makes deflection chance "lucky" which is also very good. However anything that's not 100% doesn't count when it fails to land (example: block doesn't increase the max hit you can take without dying).

The math shows that armour is less effective the larger the hit -- I wouldn't say "this math breaks down when you make incoming damage a variable". That's essentially what the math is.

Reduction = A / (A + 10*Damage)

There's your inverse relationship to variable input damage.

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Kozikuru#3127 wrote:

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AintCare#6513 wrote:

this math breaks down when you make incoming damage a variable. afaik armor's effectiveness is exponentially proportional to inverse damage incoming.

also I would title the OP as 'Why ES is OP [no diminishing returns]'

any other defense has diminishing returns, except ES. its hard to be surprised that its strong.

Deflection doesn't have diminishing returns either (40% is 40%) although monster accuracy does go up at higher levels which works against deflection. There's a really nice passive node that makes deflection chance "lucky" which is also very good. However anything that's not 100% doesn't count when it fails to land (example: block doesn't increase the max hit you can take without dying).

The math shows that armour is less effective the larger the hit -- I wouldn't say "this math breaks down when you make incoming damage a variable". That's essentially what the math is.

Reduction = A / (A + 10*Damage)

There's your inverse relationship to variable input damage.

right but your OP keeps damage incoming as constant. which paints a rather misleading picture. and yes i stand corrected on the diminishing returns for all other defenses, since even eva is more dynamic due to being exponential better at higher chance to evade even though the EVA rating itself has diminishing returns.

but my main point was that Armour is not the issue, its the power of ES that, imo, is the culprit here.

edit: im a bit tired but i would allude to need for asymptotes for ES, just not sure how to word it right now

Yea I dont think armour is bad, especially with the changes (at least what I have seen so far)

The problem is, and always was, ES scaling being to far ahead of everything else.



Ill see how things progress through the end game though. So far, its really a night and day difference from .1 when I first played warrior and now.


The armour applied to ele defense mod is ... actually cracked as F



Coupled with block being all damage.... and the new guard mechanic for temporary health.

Dude fort cry is kind of hilarious on bosses


Things are... pretty okay for armour as far as I can tell SO FAR

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AintCare#6513 wrote:

but my main point was that Armour is not the issue, its the power of ES that, imo, is the culprit here.

I concede you are spot on with this point. I will chane the subject accordingly :).

this doesnt take into account smaller hits.

someone with armor will survive many more medium sized hits than the es user would.

The smaller the hit, the more effective armor is against it.

you could make an opposite thread saying why ES is bad using this as the logic.

so in like dense breaches or something, armor is far more effective than ES when theres just 100 different whites/magic/rare mobs and not 1 big boss whos going to hit you for 6000. And against swarms of small enemies who would put out scary DPS for an ES user, armor users barely feel a thing.

I have no opnion on if ES is OP because I havnt played ES but you seem to be forgetting something that was rather important.

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Kozikuru#3127 wrote:

This is only a valid comparison if you can get 100% deflection (which I don't know factually).

Just wanna tune in. I know u changed that line already, but it's currently impossible to get 100% deflection and even almost impossible to realistically get 90%+. Most players that invest heavily into deflection will end up between 75% and 85% chance to deflect up to ~50% damage.

edit: chart for reference:

Purple Line is Deflection
Green Line is new Evasion
Red line is old Evasion