Doryani Merc builds ruin the game

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zzang#1847 wrote:

If Mercs ever would go core i would prefer a /players6 mode with the recent quantity changes in mind. Or allow us to have 6 Mercs solo.

Im afraid soon a new kind of service will open up "paid quant guys" that just enter theap to provide bonus quantity.

+1

p.s.
there are RMTrs, whales will keep on whaling, gold farmers will keep on gold farming and living under the bridge.
What matters is to make a fun game, who cares what 0.0000001% of playerbase do. Or do you really care if some idiot spends money so someone else plays a videogame for him.

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VoidWhisperer42#5989 wrote:

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

In a single week? You've done everything you wanted to do for a league that's running at least 3 months in a single week? And that's healthy to you?

Also....min/maxing one build is enough? You play a single build per league? For a week?

Oof

I know, right? Imagine actually making a build that plays the game instead of sprinting to 36 challenges via carry runs, slapping together some half-baked mess with zero layers of defense, and then acting surprised when endgame content doesn’t politely roll over.

Somehow there’s always enough currency for multiple carries, but not enough to make a real build in trade, where people are literally deleting content with dirt-cheap items and few div setups that don’t require a second mortgage. But nah, anything short of mirror-tier is apparently “unplayable” or “expensive.”

Meanwhile, SSF players are cruising through content with even worse gear and conditions.

And really, you can’t min-max a second character if you haven’t even bothered to max your first one to a halfway decent level. When someone’s only option for progressing is to pay someone else to play for them… that really says it all, doesn’t it?

Well said. Pays to rush and then complains he is bored. Physics, math etc have more than 50 steps before you can create new materials, encryption etc

Hrm...

In Path of Exile, I love Mighty hunter and have a very maximized Huck, with one of each aura on a well rolled weapon for him. I love the concept of minions and gearing them.

Also, I dearly love my Diablo II mercs, (Classic 2001 LOD - not the new abomination), and really enjoy gearing them out. In many cases, Infinity, Pride and Eth Reaper's Toll are build enabling in that game. Piercing immunity allows you to run single element builds that simply cannot function hell hell mode otherwise.

Gearing your merc in Diablo II requires careful attention to stats and gear to keep them alive in Hell Difficulty - and Pinnacle content like Uber Diablo, Key Portals or Uber Tristram will typically erase ANY merc unless you spam a belt full of Full Rejuves into them. (Then they die anyways).

A Diablo II merc not constantly dying requires powerful defensive gear like upped Upgraded shaftstop, Vampire Gaze, Tal Rasha's Mask, Levithan, Cham, Ber and Um rune sockets. Their weapons trend really expensive, ladder only uniques or hard to assemble rune words like Pride, Last Wish, Ice, Infinity or Breath of the Dying.

From the sound of things, the PoE mercs are overturned in their durability and the buffs they grant. Diablo II solved this issue 20+ years ago. I think we could have a great addition to the game with some tweaks.

- Force real defensive layering to keep them alive.
In diablo 2, if you want your merc to last more than five seconds, you have to tank him out. This means 75% resist all, 9k+ armor, 7% life leech, cannot be frozen and at least 30% physical resistance. Less than that and your merc is toast in pretty much anything worth running. Council will smoke him, Baal runs will fry them, Sanc will melt him, Gleb will hydra him again on Meph runs... we're seeing a pattern here.

An upped Shaftstop or near perfect Leviathan with a Cham and near perfect Vampire Gaze with an Um is expensive. Extrapolate that to PoE terms. You want your PoE merc tough? Force them to get an Aegis aurora, The Surrender or an expensive Shaper Shield. Make them deal with resistance penalties. Make them stack armor, evade, life, es or ward to take hits.

Require Top Shelf Weapons
If your merc in Diablo II is going to be helpful, you are locked into a small number f very hard to get items. Last Wish, Ice, Grief, Ethereal Reaper's Toll, Breath of the Dying, Infinity and Eth Insight are pretty much the only games in town. Every single one of these except Insight are enormously expensive. But without one of these weapons, your merc is just a speed bump with an aura.

Scale it up, as before. Force players to put real, expensive weapons of comparable cost if they want their mercs able to sustain. I assume there is some manner of base damage/defense in play here that is allowing people to equip their mercs into "Animate Guardian +" - remove that. If you want your merc to do more than chip damage, make people buy a 40 div wand/weapon/bow.

Require Investment to Sustain
I think forcing good defensive layering and good weapons will address this to a degree. But make the players invest into some manner of sustain. Leech, regen, life on kill, healing on block.

This includes mana for the merc. Have them revert to standard attacks with no mana.

Hardcap of 1 Buff or Debuff
Allow them to have 1 aura, hex, mark or warcry at a time. No more. And perhaps cap it at 15 or 17. Don't let them generate with multiple auras, curses, warcry's and marks. Literally only 1. These things are very powerful, just one single curse, warcry or aura is more then enough to justify the merc. (Just look at the prices of corpses with Auras to confirm).

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I think with some fine-tuning this could be a sweet addition to the game. I love my mercs in Diablo 2 and Pets in Torchlight. We just need to "eat up" the excessive damage/durability they have - to force investment - i.e. suck away the excess leeway being using to cover them in unique items that break the game.

^there is a major difference in the "merc + player" relationship in D2 vs. PoE that makes it possible and workable in D2 but NOT possible or workable in PoE. And lets be real....even in D2, the merc didn't exactly WORK lol. The only usable merc was Act 2, and not even all the Act 2 mercs were viable. And in the endgame, 99% of all mercs wore the same gear.

The difference is scale of power. Both the player's own power, as well as the possible power scale on the merc. Unlike D2, players can easily deal millions of damage while also remaining tanky against all but the hardest content with very little effort. This means having a buffing merc exponentially increases that already existing problem, in all cases, bar none. Additionally, due to the itemization and what "makes" power in PoE, the merc can only be 1 of 2 things: extremely overpowered or absolutely useless. There is no in between. In D2, mercs were mostly useless UNLESS they were fully decked out: however, decking them out didn't really provide a massive increase in power to the player.

This is an incomparable situation, and it isn't as simple as "d2 solved this 20 years ago". We are in a completely different environment, with different modes of power, and different magnitudes of powercreep. Now, GGG went the exact WRONG direction in all cases for mercs: but there really isn't a solution. It's simply a bad idea, plain and simple. It cannot be fixed to work. Because for it to "work", it's going to receive the Harvest treatment: perhaps even worse than that.

For mercs to work, they would have needed to be developed alongside the player throughout the history of the game OR developed far earlier in the game's history. D2 did not go through even .1% the amount of change that PoE has gone through since the addition of mercenaries. Sticking them into the mix NOW is just utterly impossible. There are far too many items, too many skills, too many ways that mercenaries can be exploited that can only be solved in a mass deletion of items on a scale we have never seen before. Either that, or a complete nullification of the ability for us to equip our mercs, rendering them rng garbage and ultimately useless until you win the super lottery of randomly rolling a merc with the perfect skills, perfect gear to complement those skills, and enough power to survive and/or help.

Odd double post. deleted

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

^there is a major difference in the "merc + player" relationship in D2 vs. PoE that makes it possible and workable in D2 but NOT possible or workable in PoE. And lets be real....even in D2, the merc didn't exactly WORK lol. The only usable merc was Act 2, and not even all the Act 2 mercs were viable. And in the endgame, 99% of all mercs wore the same gear.

Every merc had a workable option in Diablo II. High-end rune-words enabled this. Act II was the "Best" but thanks to Dream, Ice, Last Wish and a few other aura generating runewords, you had options. Even the much maligned Sorceror merc from Act III found a new life when coupled with a Dream/Dragon Conviction Paladin.

You are incorrrect. I still play the original LoD at a very High level, and a properly kitted merc is only in serious serious danger in Uber Tristram, Key Portals, against Uber Diablo and when encountering things like MSLE + Conviction or ESEF Fanatics.

As to the gear, yes, it was much more limited. I pretty much listed every viable option. But, Diablo II's an older game, with vastly less itemization. The number of items that are end-game viabloe even for players is very tiny compared to the vastness of PoE. That is a product of its era rather a flaw.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

^The difference is scale of power. Both the player's own power, as well as the possible power scale on the merc. Unlike D2, players can easily deal millions of damage while also remaining tanky against all but the hardest content with very little effort. This means having a buffing merc exponentially increases that already existing problem, in all cases, bar none.

You can achieve the equivalent in diablo II. 5k hp is equal to about 15k here. Every single level 90-99 character I have in Diablo II is tanky as hell, while dealing hundreds of thousands of damage. They are all also capable of killing pretty much everything the game can throw at them. And they should be, I've maintained my account for 25 years. I think the only top-shelf expensive characters I have that can't clear ubers are my Poison Necro and Fireclaws druid. Hammerdin, Smite Pally, Frenzy Barb, Lit Sorce, Meteorb Sorc, Bone Necro, Summoner Necro, Trapper Asn, Tonado Druid, Werewolf Druid, Furyzon and Bowazon literally chew up all game content and are unbelievably hard to kill while doing it.

Yes, my characters are covered in perfect or near perfect runewords and circlets and amulets that are fractal levels of powerful - but that's the scale of power we're talking about here, so it's relevant to PoE. (My necro's circlet alone has a value of 40 Ber's).

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

^Additionally, due to the itemization and what "makes" power in PoE, the merc can only be 1 of 2 things: extremely overpowered or absolutely useless. There is no in between. In D2, mercs were mostly useless UNLESS they were fully decked out: however, decking them out didn't really provide a massive increase in power to the player.

Strongly disagree. It is not a binary choice. I reject that assertion. Yes, you merc in Diablo 2 IS a speedbump until it is kitted out. But, once you do so, it can become build enabling in ways very very similar to certain unique items in PoE. Items that project certain auras such as Bramble, Infinity, Dragon, Dream, or proc Amplify Damage, Lower Resist or Decrepify will literally allow builds that would normally flounder in Hell mode. They won't by top shelf like an Hammerdin or a Mereorb Sorce, but they WILL be able to clear all standard content in a way that feels "good." I don't see that as a problem at all.

I also feel GGG can balance the mercs so they hit the same notes. Useful, but not NECESSARY. This is not an impossible benchmark. Not at all.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

^This is an incomparable situation, and it isn't as simple as "d2 solved this 20 years ago". We are in a completely different environment, with different modes of power, and different magnitudes of powercreep.

Disagree. Completely. I feel this is a flawed premise. The only real difference is PoE is a more complex beast with a much larger skill and item pool. This only increases the complexity of solving the issue - it is far from insoluble.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

^Now, GGG went the exact WRONG direction in all cases for mercs: but there really isn't a solution. It's simply a bad idea, plain and simple. It cannot be fixed to work. Because for it to "work", it's going to receive the Harvest treatment: perhaps even worse than that.

Also disagree. This is not a binary discussion. There is always a middle ground between "These are OP" and "These are worthless."

The ideal balance is where the mercs really are not that helpful in pinnacle content, but greatly increase build diversity in Base Campaign through T-16. This keeps them relevant and fun to the overwhelming majority of the playerbase, while stopping them from being an insta-delete button for content that is supposed to be a trophy.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

^For mercs to work, they would have needed to be developed alongside the player throughout the history of the game OR developed far earlier in the game's history.

I do not agree with this. I believe this is also untrue. You can integrate new content into an existing game, and do so in a way that doesn't break it. This is not an impossible challenge.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

^D2 did not go through even .1% the amount of change that PoE has gone through since the addition of mercenaries. Sticking them into the mix NOW is just utterly impossible.

This is not true. Impossible is a strong word, and that is clearly not the case. Diablo II is radically different since its inception. I would know. I was there on day 1. The only difference is sale - because PoE is a larger game with more options. But when you look at a Pinnacle Diablo II character in 2001, one in 2005, and one in 2009 when the last big patch hit, it was a giant difference in the builds, the meta and the scale of character might.

For the first 13 months of Diablo II, a Silks of the Victor, 2 Soj, Rare +1 Amulet, Wormskull/Tarnhelm, Nightsmoke, Siagon's Shield, Macefist/Frostburns, Umes/Spectral Shard and Rare 25% boots were pinnacle gear for casters. Iceblink WW barbs with a 144 Damage Pike. Pally's of all specs were broken (in a bad way), Crossbows literally didn't work right, Javazon/Spear tree was untenable, and nobody could touch a sorceress in clear or damage.

Look at the game now. The only difference is scale and scope.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

^There are far too many items, too many skills, too many ways that mercenaries can be exploited that can only be solved in a mass deletion of items on a scale we have never seen before.

No. This is also not true. Simply scaling the baseline power and durability of the mercs - apply the same rules the players abide by, (in the same way Diablo II handled the issue), and you won't be able to coat them items that boost your main character.

I feel you are being disingenuous here, in an attempt to create an insurmountable problem so as to brush aside criticism of your premise. If the merc has so much innate staying-power you can equip it like an Animate Guardian and have it be equally tanky, then weaken it until you have tp slap 20 div in defensive gear on it to keep it alive.

This is not hard to suss out a sweet spot, and it wont' require "mass deletion of gear" or other hyperbolic claims.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

^Either that, or a complete nullification of the ability for us to equip our mercs, rendering them rng garbage and ultimately useless until you win the super lottery of randomly rolling a merc with the perfect skills, perfect gear to complement those skills, and enough power to survive and/or help.

You make all of this into binary choices. That's not PoE, that's not the real world. There is a vary large amount of space between "this is trash" and "holy cow this is brokenly OP."

Mercs should be helpful or build enabling in normal content - which I would consider to be The Campaign - T16. They should die horribly without truly incredible levels of gear investment in Pinnacle content - which would be T16.5-T17-Uber Boss Battles.

This is not an impossible challenge - and I'd argue it's not even a truly difficult one.

^not based in the reality of PoE.

It is ABSOLUTELY a binary when it comes to mercenaries. Also....sure: shove perfect items onto anything and it will obviously see some use. You play standard PoE, you know that well. You are messing with a gimmick, trying to force it to work with perfection. That is the very essence of meme builds: sure they WORK, but do they actually exist, really and truly exist, in the game? No. "Oh sure, an Act 5 mercenary can work: it just needs absolutely perfect very specific items. And a very specific area of usage. Otherwise, it does nothing". You describe a binary in your own description.

PoE itself is certainly not binary, you as the player have many choices and many avenues to create a viable build. And that viability has grades of exactly HOW viable it actually is. There is cost, coverage, power, defense, mod coverage, etc. The game was developed and planned this way, items were released and tweaked to work in this environment, skills were balanced and rebalanced, auras and reservation was tuned and retuned, etc. Key to this is the fact that ALL builds have access to ALL auras, ALL buffs, ALL defenses, etc. Without a mercenary.

But this is all out the window when it comes to a mercenary or hireling. And it will always BE irrelevant in the PoE game. And I like how you conveniently ignore the specifics of actual PoE, because if you actually dove into the specifics you'd see that you are wrong.

We have all the tools already, after 13+ years of development, to build literally anything we want and make it as "viable" as we want it to be. With each and every skill. There is no room for a mercenary to be "middling" in this design. It either drastically powers up our pre-existing setup by allowing us more flexibility, giving us free auras and curses, using items that give crazy effects (perquil's toe, Doryani) or just straight up adding MORE buffs that we can't fit into our limited skill slots. Using the merc either supplies this, or they don't: a binary of being useful or useless. And if it IS deemed useful, simply by the math and structure of PoE it will always be EXPONENTIALLY useful. Always.

Even if a mercenary ONLY provided a single aura and did nothing else, it would be severely overpowered.

Due to the miltiplicative nature of some items (e.g Doryanis) that can 5x the damage of lightning builds i see a balancing nightmare for future and current itemization around mercs.

I doubt its worth it for GGG and they would buy themselves a lot of limitations for future item design due to the merc system.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

^not based in the reality of PoE.

It is ABSOLUTELY a binary when it comes to mercenaries. Also....sure: shove perfect items onto anything and it will obviously see some use. You play standard PoE, you know that well. You are messing with a gimmick, trying to force it to work with perfection. That is the very essence of meme builds: sure they WORK, but do they actually exist, really and truly exist, in the game? No. "Oh sure, an Act 5 mercenary can work: it just needs absolutely perfect very specific items. And a very specific area of usage. Otherwise, it does nothing". You describe a binary in your own description.

PoE itself is certainly not binary, you as the player have many choices and many avenues to create a viable build. And that viability has grades of exactly HOW viable it actually is. There is cost, coverage, power, defense, mod coverage, etc. The game was developed and planned this way, items were released and tweaked to work in this environment, skills were balanced and rebalanced, auras and reservation was tuned and retuned, etc. Key to this is the fact that ALL builds have access to ALL auras, ALL buffs, ALL defenses, etc. Without a mercenary.

But this is all out the window when it comes to a mercenary or hireling. And it will always BE irrelevant in the PoE game. And I like how you conveniently ignore the specifics of actual PoE, because if you actually dove into the specifics you'd see that you are wrong.

We have all the tools already, after 13+ years of development, to build literally anything we want and make it as "viable" as we want it to be. With each and every skill. There is no room for a mercenary to be "middling" in this design. It either drastically powers up our pre-existing setup by allowing us more flexibility, giving us free auras and curses, using items that give crazy effects (perquil's toe, Doryani) or just straight up adding MORE buffs that we can't fit into our limited skill slots. Using the merc either supplies this, or they don't: a binary of being useful or useless. And if it IS deemed useful, simply by the math and structure of PoE it will always be EXPONENTIALLY useful. Always.

Even if a mercenary ONLY provided a single aura and did nothing else, it would be severely overpowered.

No. It is not binary. I reject your premise entirely. You want to make it binary so it fits neatly into you argument.

I also don't see a problem in opening up new options. That's "content" for players to explore.

You are dealing in absolutes that are very obviously faulty. The reality is, the situation is far far more variable than "sux or OP."

A middle ground can be reached.

You want to make the situation unsolvable and more complex than it is to bolster your point and dismiss counter-arguments. Your logic in this instance is faulty.

My points stand. Properly balanced, mercs can have a great place in PoE, once they have been adjusted.