I really dont understand how defences work in this game

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outlander19900#0213 wrote:

The only way evasion feels good is if you screen clear before enemies get close to you. At that point you might aswell have nothing anyway.

People who build into one type of defense only with no proper spirit usage / keystone usage are poorly theorizing defense.

a 90% evasion value is a huge commitment, what value is that? Ghost Shrouds recover 7% of your evasion value to ES and then there's the true evasion keystone, so what's the plan?

There's so much fine details into the offensive side yet some are very unhappy that they can't make as defense as simple as "I've got one very high number....WORK damn you! This game sucks!".

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TrunktenUK#3407 wrote:

There's so much fine details into the offensive side yet some are very unhappy that they can't make as defense as simple as "I've got one very high number....WORK damn you! This game sucks!".

In poe1 you had no problem equipping any combination of defenses on any kind of character, limited only by total character space in gear modifiers + passives. But now we have very steep attribute requirements and massively bloated passive tree, with increased travel distances. Your skill gem choice locks you inside your portion of the passive tree, no breaking out unless you sacrifice gear slots for serious attribute boosts. Also locks the base types of items you equip.

You've basically lucked out that your chosen dex/int archetype happens to also contain the most cost-efficient defense solution, so you have more than enough space on character to round it up. Try playing the other side of the tree, then tell people how dumb they are.

North part of the tree also had unique defense gimmick before (MoM and EB), but it was arbitrarily destroyed. Ghost shroud spam was not. With GGG, seeking logic is useless.

We have a thread in Feedback group.

An interesting idea would be if rework block and evasion that ignoring literally unlimited damage
it should
block
Reduce incoming damage and your armour handle the rest.
The same time armour could use some more love, because without shield armour is pretty useless. Or more that block is the same as evasion, but with thorn.

Evasion
Could be reworked that its recoup, or evasion increase recoup. Technically creating the bloodborne style rally mechanic, where instead of ignoring unlimited damage it would be like a negative "flask use" and you had to fight or heal the damage back.

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Kraivan#1745 wrote:

block
Reduce incoming damage and your armour handle the rest.
The same time armour could use some more love, because without shield armour is pretty useless. Or more that block is the same as evasion, but with thorn.

D3 and D4 have block like this. While it is irrelevant in D3, block amount was flat number, so usually equals to fully ignore hit, in D4 it is balanced better, 15% DR on block by default + various bonuses.

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Kraivan#1745 wrote:

Evasion
Could be reworked that its recoup, or evasion increase recoup. Technically creating the bloodborne style rally mechanic, where instead of ignoring unlimited damage it would be like a negative "flask use" and you had to fight or heal the damage back.

Problem was never in evasion itself, it is "okay" mechanic. Problem is GGG-silly-overtuned enemy damage because of GGG-silly-overtuned-player-recovery before that. Any dodge style mechanic you invent would mean nothing if your health pool is less than 1 boss hit. Either they rework evasion into another gimmicky form of mitigation, or they bring back %increased player health from poe1.

In D4 health potions actually have a cooldown, you have to heavily invest in order to have recovery loop offsetting all damage received in deep endgame.

"

Kraivan#1745 wrote:

We have a thread in Feedback group.

An interesting idea would be if rework block and evasion that ignoring literally unlimited damage
it should
block
Reduce incoming damage and your armour handle the rest.
The same time armour could use some more love, because without shield armour is pretty useless. Or more that block is the same as evasion, but with thorn.

Evasion
Could be reworked that its recoup, or evasion increase recoup. Technically creating the bloodborne style rally mechanic, where instead of ignoring unlimited damage it would be like a negative "flask use" and you had to fight or heal the damage back.

It's funny that you mention this because Evasion is super useful at make sure you don't get stunned while using block and parry.

"

outlander19900#0213 wrote:

I have a lvl 90 in hc with 9.5k es and nothing else. For me having nothing but es works perfect and I'm playing a very off meta builds with 20k dps.

With how absurdly simple and op Grim Feast was prior to 0.2...

If you think Evasion is just plain bad, I think I can gather you used the op Grim Feast to carry your ES build.

Stun is another problem exclusive to pure ES. Spend 2-3 passive clusters just to offset stunlock without +200% stun map mod. With said mod you will get kicked around even with passives, good luck trying to cast comet or build channeling.

I ended up removing all those "%ES as stun threshold" nodes as unreliable and equipped recharge ES on stun while casting gem.

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Echothesis#7320 wrote:

"

Kraivan#1745 wrote:

block
Reduce incoming damage and your armour handle the rest.
The same time armour could use some more love, because without shield armour is pretty useless. Or more that block is the same as evasion, but with thorn.

D3 and D4 have block like this. While it is irrelevant in D3, block amount was flat number, so usually equals to fully ignore hit, in D4 it is balanced better, 15% DR on block by default + various bonuses.

"

Kraivan#1745 wrote:

Evasion
Could be reworked that its recoup, or evasion increase recoup. Technically creating the bloodborne style rally mechanic, where instead of ignoring unlimited damage it would be like a negative "flask use" and you had to fight or heal the damage back.

Problem was never in evasion itself, it is "okay" mechanic. Problem is GGG-silly-overtuned enemy damage because of GGG-silly-overtuned-player-recovery before that. Any dodge style mechanic you invent would mean nothing if your health pool is less than 1 boss hit. Either they rework evasion into another gimmicky form of mitigation, or they bring back %increased player health from poe1.

In D4 health potions actually have a cooldown, you have to heavily invest in order to have recovery loop offsetting all damage received in deep endgame.

Im not saying changing this two mechanic would solve the game.

But I think its a necessary step to balance endgame because the main issue you just cant kill players who nullify incoming damage, and whatever they get is instantly regenerated.
Their "only" solution (allegedly) is to oneshot players.

- Change the two mitigation.
- Armour needs buffed.
- Nerf leech and regeneration
Tbf, I was even thinking that removing flask would be a huge help too

- take away heals. Every "defensive" support gem is just heal, heal heal and more heal.
When I go full battlemode I have like 30% leech, 15% max hp/res + flask.
I really wonder what my overheal rate is, and how useless healing is, because when your hp goes from 100-0 there's not much to heal there...
Would it be hard to change a few to "reduce damage"?

- tone down the patches on the ground. Instead of ticking like 30% hp per second it could be a stacking debuff.
What about % hp damage. Punishing, but wouldn't kill players... (in case we check loot)

- introduce defensive skills and crowd control abilities.
we have spellslots anyway, because due to minmaxing every spec is funneled to 1 button builds. The game needs crowd control abilities




Shift from passive statchecks to actual meaningful decision.
Its not a skill to outgear content or having so much max res and healthpool that you can just ignore the fights. Or admit that the ARPG part is secondary, and in reality the game is learning rng manipulation XD

Give us knockback with collision bonus. (ie: if target hits the wall it get stunned)
Smoke screen should limit Line of Sight of enemies, not reducing accuracy. So while they reposition themselves you kill the other half of the screen.
Introduce retaliation skills for each class. And give them a cooldown, we don't want to change those to "autoattacks"
Quagmires that slow down speedsters
Counterstrike that reflect projectiles back...
A warrior shout that reduce enemy attack damage, but would increase attack speed (would be good for thorn or shieldless builds)
Where the traditional disarm?
Shield wall should absorb aoe damage. It does the same thing what you do with the shield anyway... XD

"

Kraivan#1745 wrote:

Shift from passive statchecks to actual meaningful decision.
Its not a skill to outgear content or having so much max res and healthpool that you can just ignore the fights. Or admit that the ARPG part is secondary, and in reality the game is learning rng manipulation XD

I can get behind that, unhinged balance leads to atrocious learning curve:) Players are either undergeared (and get frustrated) or overleveled+overgeared (and become the snobby faction on these forums).

But the biggest elephant in the room is: this very mess was what made poe1 popular originally and contributed the most retention. The center of mass here are players who work to trivialize content, blow up screens of mobs, and show off with that. Fixing balance means taking it away from them.

While I actively criticize GGG for their hypocrisy (they keep saying how they want to slow things down, then leave LS in the game. And several spectre nerfing hotfixes, lol), and call them out on shitty mechanics like exp penalty in the realm of RNG oneshots (for the sake of simple majority of normal players who needlessly suffer), I can see that the minority of abuser whales still has the decisive vote, and GGG will cater to the latter first.

They pushed a truckload of nerfs with 0.2, but end result is mysteriously the same as before: poe2 steams show blowing screens again, not "meaningful decisions".

"

Echothesis#7320 wrote:

"

Kraivan#1745 wrote:

Shift from passive statchecks to actual meaningful decision.
Its not a skill to outgear content or having so much max res and healthpool that you can just ignore the fights. Or admit that the ARPG part is secondary, and in reality the game is learning rng manipulation XD

I can get behind that, unhinged balance leads to atrocious learning curve:) Players are either undergeared (and get frustrated) or overleveled+overgeared (and become the snobby faction on these forums).

But the biggest elephant in the room is: this very mess was what made poe1 popular originally and contributed the most retention. The center of mass here are players who work to trivialize content, blow up screens of mobs, and show off with that. Fixing balance means taking it away from them.

While I actively criticize GGG for their hypocrisy (they keep saying how they want to slow things down, then leave LS in the game. And several spectre nerfing hotfixes, lol), and call them out on shitty mechanics like exp penalty in the realm of RNG oneshots (for the sake of simple majority of normal players who needlessly suffer), I can see that the minority of abuser whales still has the decisive vote, and GGG will cater to the latter first.

They pushed a truckload of nerfs with 0.2, but end result is mysteriously the same as before: poe2 steams show blowing screens again, not "meaningful decisions".

The campaign feels good. Each class have an identity. Sometime feels odd. Ie: silverfist oneshotting a shield user warbringer... Ist it us who supposed to counter him completely?

But game is about a few mobs having a well telegraphed, and punishing ability.
I think most of them takes like 2-3 seconds to actually connect.

But mapping is the same as statstacking:
its mod and enemy stacking.
Volatile plant itself isn't cruel.
But when it comes with 4 mod, literally hundred of enemies chewing your face
while archers pulling the strings to shoot like wannabe Lorderan Archers from Dark Souls,
caster sending meteors and runic carpetbombs
while brutes walking in your face, casting enrage and stomp at you...
While you get donut lightning, regeneration, invulnerability, etc mod stacked up...

You cant filter out in that mess who you supposed to dodgeroll, so the simpliest way to counter that is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZLS5KNDelI

Well yeah... for powerfantasy perspective the game is balanced:
The question isn't how can you beat the game.
The true question is
how much hitpoint, resistance and dps you need for each Map tier I guess...