lol... Why call it crafting? It's just gambling.

There are deterministic crafts and non deterministic crafts.

But how is it difficult when you buy a fractured item?
You literally take an essence, roll a guaranteed second pre-or suffix and your third is rng. You block either suffix or prefix, hit reforge or veiled chaos/ex and got an item with 5 good mods. Most of these items are enough to kill everything in the game.

If you talk about synth, influence or high eldritch mod crafting, then that's a different beast but you need to have this also for people sinking their currency.

mathematically speaking, ALL mirror tier legendary items have 1 single most optimized path to "gamble" with your currency.

So it's both. Crafting is in the finding out the possible paths as well as the most optimized path, gambling is in actually throwing currency onto that path and hope it hits earlier than the average.

Skill Issue

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nagisanzeninzz#2697 wrote:

gambling is in actually throwing currency onto that path and hope it hits earlier than the average.

What if you're not "hoping it hits earlier", but that you're rather determined to throw what needs to be thrown to hit a certain outcome? If you are rich beyond belief, and 100% determined, doesn't it become... semi-deterministic?

Sure, if everything opposed to deterministic is "gambling", the system is indeed gambling, as deterministic means "no variation". But then I would argue that deterministic crafting with no variation, randomness or unpredictability has no place in a loot-driven ARPG, unless the potential power is severely lowered.

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Phrazz#3529 wrote:

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nagisanzeninzz#2697 wrote:

gambling is in actually throwing currency onto that path and hope it hits earlier than the average.

What if you're not "hoping it hits earlier", but that you're rather determined to throw what needs to be thrown to hit a certain outcome? If you are rich beyond belief, and 100% determined, doesn't it become... semi-deterministic?

Sure, if everything opposed to deterministic is "gambling", the system is indeed gambling, as deterministic means "no variation". But then I would argue that deterministic crafting with no variation, randomness or unpredictability has no place in a loot-driven ARPG, unless the potential power is severely lowered.

uhh.. yeah

Basically if path to make an item exists, it can be made with infinite amount of currencies. Just do a trillion coin toss lol.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_large_numbers

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nagisanzeninzz#2697 wrote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_large_numbers

My point exactly. If you throw a dice enough times, you KNOW you will hit a six.

As a sidenote, I wrote my thesis on the Law of large numbers.

honestly games like this have shown me i have me i have no stomach for gambling irl. i love a good poe gamble, i love the crafting.

-It's a video game. They cant replicate the experience of handcrafting something with mouse and keyboard. And using CAD software to get our items cnc'd and laser engraved sounds like terrible gameplay.

-Exchanging "x" resource for guaranteed outcome "y" is not crafting, that's a transaction.

-IRL craftsmen aren't immune from errors/mistakes in their work, they do not have absolute control over their tools/materials/environment. it's always a gamble when making something difficult and very often things dont come out entirely as planned.

So to simulate 'crafting' it comes down to using knowledge/resources to mitigate the factors of rng that cause undesired outcomes. Similar to how IRL craftsmen mitigate flaws by having proper tools(orbs), extra materials(base) and the experience to apply them.

The crafting system in PoE is widely regarded as the worst in any ARPG (well, any that have it anyway).

Crafting in PoE is RNG if you don't have a lot of currency but it's deterministic if you do have a lot of currency.

That is to say, if you know know the system well (and it's a huge mess to understand) and have enough currency you will eventually get the exact result you are looking for. This is why people who craft and sell items make so much currency. It's expensive to even make those items in the first place but they are selling it sometimes at more than double the average crafting price to make it.

Needless to say it's a horrible crafting system but no matter how many ideas or complaining we do to GGG, they will not change this because they don't even understand one very basic thing. They can't make ground loot good unless they fundamentally change the crafting system.

It's funny that people are trying to apply real-world crafting/manufacturing/etc. situations to POE crafting.

Based on the insanely bad RNG and random outcomes of POE "crafting", here would be an analog for a carpenter making a wooden chair.

- 20% chance of the chair having 5 legs instead of 4.
- 20% chance of the chair having 3 legs instead of 4.
- 20% chance of the chair having 4 legs of different lengths.
- 20% chance of the chair collapsing when you sit on it, regardless of weight.
- 19% chance of the chair being double its intended height.
- 1% chance of the chair having its intended height, 4 legs of equal length, and structural stability

There's a giant gaping abyss between "this is deterministic and easy and boring" and "here's 50 steps of horrible RNG gambling have fun". Both POE1 and POE2 "crafting" are firmly towards the latter.

- The devs here decided a while back that useful powerful item drops ON THE GROUND were not allowed, so they pivoted to "crafting" gameplay
- This game then became a currency simulator, not an ARPG, in which you need abundant currency becuase virtually every "crafting" pathway is painful outside of the crafting bench in your hideout
- Said currency has now been mostly removed, so the game is neither a currency simulator nor an ARPG