A question for the community regarding GGG's Vision for POE2.

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ComradYUmad#6993 wrote:

Or maybe some other solution is to making the top gear not having such absurd power that they can one shot or 3 mins bosses.

Optimizing a build & gear to faster clear the hardest content is literally the essence of the Arpg genre . Again i asked why we should even remove/nerf that ? It has nothing to do with balance or fair play , apart from trading implications who care if the best builds insta-delete bosses ? No the real issue here is once again about casuals entitlement : "we should be able to clear everything with my one click low effort build/gear" , nope fuck that = trash solution to a non-existing problem .

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ComradYUmad#6993 wrote:

Give the players something else to chase, like cosmetic or titles. There're plenty of other games that retain players engagement without having absurd power creep.

This ain't supposed to be WoW lmao .

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ComradYUmad#6993 wrote:

Give the players something else to chase, like cosmetic or titles. There're plenty of other games that retain players engagement without having absurd power creep.

This ain't supposed to be WoW lmao .[/quote]

Maybe not, but it's hard to argue against the longevity of WoW vs the relatively short player attention span for an ARPG. Peak 12 million subscribers and 20 years later people are still playing it. (est 4 millionish)

Being a slave to the idea that an ARPG has to be this or that will wind up making this exactly what people say it is: A modern D2 clone. Nothing wrong with D2, a fantastic game... but these games have a tendency to have a shelf life that dwindles rapidly once people complete the chase. Why wouldnt GGG want to look at ways to make the game more long term valuable beyond the die hards?

Short answer: Yes.

Hard answer: Yes, but in a time frame that is decent as a progression...Which in an economy based game is not possible, as no lifers like streamers and content creators will get rich in 2-3 days, reach end game and destroy it, inflating the market. People want game replay-ability, while some of them just want to keep on farming the same hard content till the end of days, which in both cases it's conflictual. People who want replay-ability won't want to get the short street to hitting the end wall, while the ones that want to farm the hardest content till the end of the days will always find away to get quicker there.
GGG scales this by adding life/damage modifiers to mobs until they become impossible to be done ( Delve), which is another way of doing things instead of hard capping the methods of how the build can be scaled.

For example in D2 you hit a hard cap, there is no way to out manipulate that, so instead they scaled the life of mobs to the hard cap. But in modern days people want more ways to have fun, more ways to replay the game, more custom things to do with their char, hence all the options to customize your end game build on GGG's side which instead they solved by adding more damage/life/modifiers to mobs until they become impossible to overcome.

But to return to my question, yes you should be able with high enough investment to destroy the game, that's what makes a game a game for players, you play it to a point you trivialize, meaning the developers need to work on another way to keep you engaged ( not just up the damage and health of mobs like GGG does) which translates to CD ( continuous development)...They want a job tomorrow, they need to work on ways to keep you engaged, and not just by scaling life and damage to points were you won't be able to surpass because your build reached a high wall

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Hondo42#9683 wrote:

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ComradYUmad#6993 wrote:

Give the players something else to chase, like cosmetic or titles. There're plenty of other games that retain players engagement without having absurd power creep.

This ain't supposed to be WoW lmao .

Maybe not, but it's hard to argue against the longevity of WoW vs the relatively short player attention span for an ARPG. Peak 12 million subscribers and 20 years later people are still playing it. (est 4 millionish)

Being a slave to the idea that an ARPG has to be this or that will wind up making this exactly what people say it is: A modern D2 clone. Nothing wrong with D2, a fantastic game... but these games have a tendency to have a shelf life that dwindles rapidly once people complete the chase. Why wouldnt GGG want to look at ways to make the game more long term valuable beyond the die hards?

Is the WoW-like model more successful than Diablo-like model ? Maybe .
But that's not the point lol .

How many ARPGs succeded at cloning D2 recipe ? PoE 1 , Grim Dawn , Titan Quest , Torchlight , Sacred ...
How many MMOs succeded at cloning WoW recipe ? Thousand(s) tried , 99% failed .

People here ain't looking for some botched WoW-clone experience , and GGG got way enough to fix already at making PoE 2 the next-gen PoE 1 / D2 they marketed ... before they try to lure in a different kind of hard-to-please customers .

I wouldn't mind either way, but slower builds (once perfected) have to be able to survive the longer encounters too.

I mean, I'm not what we could call a PoE veteran, as my last played league was years ago, I've never been into super busted builds, and I might be remembering things poorly (or things changed), but PoE evolved in killing everything as fast as possible, as super tanky builds aside, Pinnacle bosses would kill you in one or two hits anyway. The easiest way to beat these boss, as such, was to never really give the chance for them to attack you for long to begin with. Also, as far as EXP and loot farming goes, outside of HC, killing faster, even if you end up being squishier, is almost always preferable to progressing at a slower pace. There might be content specific builds that benefit from being tankier, but I'm not well versed in the subject... ;)

Anyway, a 30 seconds fight can be easy if you only have to dodge 10 or 15 AoE attacks. A 5 minutes fight with the same boss' attack rate means you would have to dodge between 100 and 150 attacks, making it a game of bullet hell attrition where a single mistake is fatal, regardless of your gear/defense. I don't think this is what most ARPG players envision when they want to play this type of game.

Eventually, in all ARPG, unless there is some mechanics that limit damage per tick/attack or unskippable bosses phases where the boss still attacks you (and everyone suffers those regardless of their DPS), you'll end up trivializing even the hardest encounter given proper gear/build/synergies, but this kind of achievement requires time, proper optimization of passives and a lot of luck to get that perfect gear. This is what building your character is all about, but I would love if in PoE2, we could survive slam attacks with a slightly more tanky, non ES build that yes, end up having lower dps to compensate.

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Ashyev#5110 wrote:

Is the WoW-like model more successful than Diablo-like model ? Maybe .
But that's not the point lol .

How many ARPGs succeded at cloning D2 recipe ? PoE 1 , Grim Dawn , Titan Quest , Torchlight , Sacred ...
How many MMOs succeded at cloning WoW recipe ? Thousand(s) tried , 99% failed .

People here ain't looking for some botched WoW-clone experience , and GGG got way enough to fix already at making PoE 2 the next-gen PoE 1 / D2 they marketed ... before they try to lure in a different kind of hard-to-please customers .

Nevermind that those games failed because they all had the same problems: A subscription model, lack of polish even grindier with far worse power creep than WoW and not enough content.

Anyway, I was thinking of Dota 2, LoL and Counter Strike, PUBG, Apex Legend, From Software games when I said that. You know, people playing the game just because it's fun rather than grind for power.

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PowderD#2198 wrote:

Here's a simple question but I feel it is a massive elephant in the room we should talk about: Should players have the ability to trivialize ALL content with max gear (ie: 300+div Builds not broken 1Div mechanics that glitch the game) with 30 second or less boss fights?

No.

If you want that game, there are plenty of other ARPGs to play, including PoE1.

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PowderD#2198 wrote:

Or should we all be capped out at 2-5 minute boss fights, even with max best in slot gear/rolls (forced phases, stupid HP, etc) so that we can experience the whole vision GGG has for their boss fights/combat?

Yes.

The issues that GGG wanted to initially address with 2 could have easily been done by adjusting drop rates / RNG, but they made the effort to make a game where players actually have to engage with their class's abilities and with the enemy's attacks. Trivializing that with power creep just makes all that work pointless.

I think the entire game needs to be slowed down and scaled down at end-game power levels.

Player movement and attack speed needs to be lower. Damage scaling on many things needs to be much lower; nobody should be doing millions of damage.

Monsters need to be stronger, slower (unless speed is the enemy types' unique characteristic). Melee monster damage should be a serious threat to ranged characters; as it should - they're ranged.

At the same time, one-shots need to be seriously tuned down. Melee characters who aren't complete glass cannon builds should pretty much never get one shot, except by the heaviest, most telegraphed "death blow" mechanics. Ranged characters should almost always have to worry about one shots; they already have a major advantage being ranged, and can move while attacking or casting abilities.

i think its fine if your character can progress to the point of essentially trivalizing the game.

but the point should be that its a progression. poe2 definitely took much longer than poe1 to get to that point, at least for me, but i refused to buy into the whole pillar/howa/blah blah crap.

balance is definitely going to happen which is a good thing, but i think its fine that if you get BiS perfect gear in every slot/mirror tier gear you should be able to essentially not be in any danger of failing anything.


that being said the biggest problem that i see is that nobody expects/wants to fail anything, ever. this is what is killing that progression.
look sometimes you're just going to fail going up in tier of maps. we should need to farm some in order to get the gear to progress up in maps etc. we should fail red maps, we should fail t4 bosses and trials etc. but every time anyone fails anything the first time, they come on forum and write up a complain post about how its all BS.

when this community says "progression" they see it as like a line straight up. IMO there should be bumps in the road, there should be challenges. ones that can eventually be overcome, absolutely, but without those hiccups and difficulties it all means nothing. at that points its just, slap on the best crap and blow out the game

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xMustard#3403 wrote:

i think its fine if your character can progress to the point of essentially trivalizing the game.

But it means you can't play that character anymore, because what's the point of playing if all content is trivalized?

I would be fine with Diablo solution of endlessly scaled map tiers, this way there would be challenging enough content for any player.