How can an ARPG fit a vision of more deliberate combat? A discussion thread

"

Sutopia#6937 wrote:

"

GregoryAdams#7051 wrote:

Well, in that case, wouldn't it make more sense to make the skill floor lower, i.e. make the base game easier overall? Then you enable all the less optimized builds to complete the game, too.

The reason I'm mentioning this is that I personally don't really like the focus on mechanical gameplay at all.

The problem is that you can't have a game that's both difficult AND doesn't invite hyper optimization. Because that's the logical "solution" to the difficulty.

The problem is the huge efficiency difference between optimized and non-optimized builds and then balance the game around only optimized builds while allowing some form of snowballing with an in-game market. It is fine for an optimized build to have double the chances to make mistakes but still come out on top, which I think the game went the totally wrong way of nerfing player defensive abilities while putting little if any restrictions on offensive scaling. If GGG really want to slow the game down they need to tune the offensive scaling way down and focus on making interesting defensive scaling, as lowered/limited dps is the only way to um, “make sure” people are engaged with any mechanism they make instead of current meta of killing enemy off screen so you never need to worry about how you may be killed.

Yeah, that's a good point. Offense scales so much compared to defense, that investing in defense "feels" like a waste. If the returns on both types of investment were similar, that would result in more builds with more balance between offense and defense.

Good topic to think about.
But we still haven't heard from GGG: what is their vision?

There are 2 opinions on the matter right now, but both must be confirmed by devs themselves first.

1. They added zoomzoom POE1 endgame just because they had no time to prepare "correct POE 2 endgame" which is in plans.

2. They added zoomzoom POE1 endgame because this was the vision right from the start (from those times when they said that POE2 will be just a big POE1 update with 2 different campaigns and better graphics).


Personally, I'd love to see the first variant where you have to move very slowly and methodically to some distant endgame goal just like you do it in the campaign. With visual clarity, tactical combat, clever combos, interesting monsters, bosses and all along those lines. But is it possible to do? With current skills/supports/passives - no way. Too much powercreep and too many things to keep in check. Even Cruel difficulty is ironically less cruel than first three acts because of that.

If, however, the plan was to make POE1 campaign right from the start, then I'd say the very concept has failed, because right now campaing/endgame are 2 different games with very different feeling. Those who like 1st part will stop playing upon reaching 2nd (we already see this when people keep rolling new chars right after A3 cruel - but what will they do when they ll try all 6 classes? Right.) And those who like 2nd part might stop playing the game just because they hate doing part 1. In this case, I'm afraid, campaign difficulty will be nerfed and the game will return to POE1 formula totally (and eventually POE1 will be forgotten all at once as there will be no sense to support it, as it happens now with Diablo III).

"

ClockworkShrew#7536 wrote:

So, what do you think can be done to change combat in a way that would still feel like a satisfying ARPG experience, while also changing some of the elements that tend to lead to zoom meta stuff design? Or do you think the game should remain the same in mapping, but just have more bosses to compensate this?

Obviously, this is all my opinion...

First, you need to slow combat down a bit. PoE2 does this relatively well early game but then it falls apart the further you get in the campaign and maps. However, the foundation is there.

Second, if you slow down the player, and you slow down the combat, then you also need to slow down the enemies. Outside of boss fights, this is where PoE2 fails completely. By the time you're in Act 2, every enemy that isn't a zombie out-paces you, and in Act 3 enemies are hyped on Speed. Additionally, you need smaller groups of enemies overall. 1 vs 5. 1 vs 10. These can be engaging and tactical. 1 vs 20 or more? That's when the game becomes more about spamming AoEs than engaging combat (more on this later).

Side note: Its almost as if the bosses were designed for PoE2 whereas the regular mobs were pulled directly from the PoE1 design docs with little to no understanding of the changes.

Third, you need enemies that aren't just about dealing as much damage as possible. You need enemies that have low-damage abilities that hinder the player in other ways. Slows, blinds, curses, armor breaks, silences, etc. This creates more tactical encounters. Imagine if those big spiders' ranged web attack did little damage, but applied a stacking slow that could completely hold the player if they got too many stacks, while also leaving a bunch of slow patches on the ground that lasted more than 1.5 seconds. Imagine if the sand golems has a sand version of Frost Bomb that did little damage, but blinded the player for a duration. How about an enemy that could Silence the player for a few seconds, prohibiting the use of mana. Or a debuff that applied a 1-2 second recharge to your non-basic abilities for a short duration (the base ability inherent in your weapon).

All of these examples would do very little damage, would be properly visible and telegraphed, and could be avoided. Then, drop some Notables on the Passive Tree that interact with these effects as well. Perhaps getting Silenced could trigger an Enrage, perhaps you gain +Crit for a few seconds after being Blinded, etc. You could even apply interactions to Unique Items; lord knows they need a complete redesign as is. This is how you add additional layers to combat and make it more engaging.

You could also add non-damaging on-death effects for some enemies as well. An enemy that lets out a healing burst, or one that enrages nearby allies, or applies a curse on-death. This creates prioritization when it comes to defeating certain enemy types. Do you focus the annoying enemy down so that it can buff its allies, or do you deal with the allies first?

There's still one last thing that would need to be done. This is probably the most important, and easily the most controversial.

Fourth, tone down the AoEs. Don't get me wrong, AoEs definitely have their place, and I'm not saying to eliminate them or gut them, but there is no reason to have engaging combat if you're not engaging in combat. Sure, pressing a button to clear a screen is fun but let's be honest, you're not really engaging in combat at that point, you're blowing up screens of enemies before they can do anything. And this, IMO, is where the ARPG and Souls-like have a conflict of interest. You need to pick one, and embrace it. Right now, PoE2 is trying to do both, and failing at both. It needs to determine if it wants engaging Souls-like combat, or if it wants to be your standard ARPG.

"

ARPGs that are in some way descended from Diablo 2 all have a relatively simple game loop:
kill monsters -> get better gear and level up -> kill bigger monsters -> get even better gear and level up -> ...

Naturally, every player quickly realizes that the faster they can execute this loop, the faster they can progress through the game, and experience content that they haven't previously seen.

The only way you'd get more deliberate combat is if you remove the incentive to increase the pace of this loop.

So, as a stupid example, you could say that during any 5 second interval only 1 monster can give you XP and drop items, thereby removing the incentive to build characters that can kill more than 1 monster every 5 seconds.

Or you could make it so that only the boss of an area gives you XP and drops items, but the boss arena only "unlocks" after you've been in the map for at least 2 minutes.

Every single thing I can think of sounds awful. If you want a slow ARPG, then I'm afraid that you'll have to throw 99% of this game in the bin and start over.

Correct. But no matter what you do here, still the key is "kill everyting as fast as possible". The only option to change smth in this fundamental formula is... "kills smth CREATIVELY for better drop" haha ) But that is really stupid.

So the only option remaining is making it hard to kill. One more stupid idea, that could actually work here (though zoomers' rage will be unthinkable): the more your DPS is, the less item quantity/rarity you have. HAHAHA ) Gods don't need treasures, do they? )

Honestly this game definitely has an identity crisis right now.

If the end game currently is their vision, they should just commit fully to this being a direct sequel for the zoom zoom enjoyers (which I'm one of). Now that my Archmage Stormweaver is in T15 or really doesn't feel very different from 1 in terms of speed and playstyle. I press one button (spark) 95% of the time. I'll curse a taste with lightning twist, and I'll attack a couple buffs for bosses. Which is pretty PoE1 and I'm not mad about it. Every single iteration I tried of a combo based play style felt infinitely worse. I enjoyed leveling as cold with a Winter Orb > Frost Nova > Cold Snap combo but it had drawbacks and just spamming spark is soooo much better.


If they do really want allow methodical intense moment to moment combat... than I honestly think they should turn the game into more of a boss rush style game. Something similar to Monster Hunter. If we compare to Elden Ring to stick with the theme around here, that game has you fighting 1 monster at a time for the most part, maybe a duo boss here and there and sometimes a few normal enemies at a time. The only time I ever fought more than that was pretty much due to my stupidity and rarely a winnable fight. But in PoE2 there are so many monsters that move so fast that there's no realistic way for combat to be deliberate and methodical. Give me 1 to maybe 4 monsters in q given fight, reduce the crazy wide aggro range, and beef up normal monsters. Get rid of the idea of white monsters being minions you mostly one shot, and make them be engaging strong fights and just let magic and rares have their modifiers they wish have and unique be the special fights they are (and also buffed tbh). That's the best way I can think to blend the two.

"

Azimuthus#1135 wrote:

"

ARPGs that are in some way descended from Diablo 2 all have a relatively simple game loop:
kill monsters -> get better gear and level up -> kill bigger monsters -> get even better gear and level up -> ...

Naturally, every player quickly realizes that the faster they can execute this loop, the faster they can progress through the game, and experience content that they haven't previously seen.

The only way you'd get more deliberate combat is if you remove the incentive to increase the pace of this loop.

So, as a stupid example, you could say that during any 5 second interval only 1 monster can give you XP and drop items, thereby removing the incentive to build characters that can kill more than 1 monster every 5 seconds.

Or you could make it so that only the boss of an area gives you XP and drops items, but the boss arena only "unlocks" after you've been in the map for at least 2 minutes.

Every single thing I can think of sounds awful. If you want a slow ARPG, then I'm afraid that you'll have to throw 99% of this game in the bin and start over.

Correct. But no matter what you do here, still the key is "kill everyting as fast as possible". The only option to change smth in this fundamental formula is... "kills smth CREATIVELY for better drop" haha ) But that is really stupid.

So the only option remaining is making it hard to kill. One more stupid idea, that could actually work here (though zoomers' rage will be unthinkable): the more your DPS is, the less item quantity/rarity you have. HAHAHA )

They could make it so that your DPS is higher when you use multiple skills rather than 1-2. It's called damage layering and it's a staple in MMOs.

Thing is that it requires mobs to not die in 1 hit, so we're on "fewer, tankier mobs" and shrinking the maps (this is good).

"

Azimuthus#1135 wrote:

"

ARPGs that are in some way descended from Diablo 2 all have a relatively simple game loop:
kill monsters -> get better gear and level up -> kill bigger monsters -> get even better gear and level up -> ...

Naturally, every player quickly realizes that the faster they can execute this loop, the faster they can progress through the game, and experience content that they haven't previously seen.

The only way you'd get more deliberate combat is if you remove the incentive to increase the pace of this loop.

So, as a stupid example, you could say that during any 5 second interval only 1 monster can give you XP and drop items, thereby removing the incentive to build characters that can kill more than 1 monster every 5 seconds.

Or you could make it so that only the boss of an area gives you XP and drops items, but the boss arena only "unlocks" after you've been in the map for at least 2 minutes.

Every single thing I can think of sounds awful. If you want a slow ARPG, then I'm afraid that you'll have to throw 99% of this game in the bin and start over.

Correct. But no matter what you do here, still the key is "kill everyting as fast as possible". The only option to change smth in this fundamental formula is... "kills smth CREATIVELY for better drop" haha ) But that is really stupid.

So the only option remaining is making it hard to kill. One more stupid idea, that could actually work here (though zoomers' rage will be unthinkable): the more your DPS is, the less item quantity/rarity you have. HAHAHA ) Gods don't need treasures, do they? )

"Kill everything as fast as possible" this should still be the objective of ANY build. Meta or off meta

However PoE1 outright penalizes you if you don't do some sort of 1-2 max button spam.

So builds that wanted to have more skills to use just felt bad but they still want to be able to kill and improve the killing speed while not feeling useless by using multiple skills.

This is also known as having options.

And you can only have those options of 1-spam AND multiple skills/skill combos being viable if you slow the game down.

I mean, I don't even see it as slowing down, I see it as sanity. Because PoE 1 has absolute insane speed and damage scaling. It is not healthy in any way.

"

Xenus_Paradox#7530 wrote:

"

Azimuthus#1135 wrote:

"

ARPGs that are in some way descended from Diablo 2 all have a relatively simple game loop:
kill monsters -> get better gear and level up -> kill bigger monsters -> get even better gear and level up -> ...

Naturally, every player quickly realizes that the faster they can execute this loop, the faster they can progress through the game, and experience content that they haven't previously seen.

The only way you'd get more deliberate combat is if you remove the incentive to increase the pace of this loop.

So, as a stupid example, you could say that during any 5 second interval only 1 monster can give you XP and drop items, thereby removing the incentive to build characters that can kill more than 1 monster every 5 seconds.

Or you could make it so that only the boss of an area gives you XP and drops items, but the boss arena only "unlocks" after you've been in the map for at least 2 minutes.

Every single thing I can think of sounds awful. If you want a slow ARPG, then I'm afraid that you'll have to throw 99% of this game in the bin and start over.

Correct. But no matter what you do here, still the key is "kill everyting as fast as possible". The only option to change smth in this fundamental formula is... "kills smth CREATIVELY for better drop" haha ) But that is really stupid.

So the only option remaining is making it hard to kill. One more stupid idea, that could actually work here (though zoomers' rage will be unthinkable): the more your DPS is, the less item quantity/rarity you have. HAHAHA )

They could make it so that your DPS is higher when you use multiple skills rather than 1-2. It's called damage layering and it's a staple in MMOs.

Thing is that it requires mobs to not die in 1 hit, so we're on "fewer, tankier mobs" and shrinking the maps (this is good).

Imagine, next meta: "The DoT stacker - 1 ignite, 1 poison, 1 bleed, 1 of every curse, ..."
People are already mad when they have to press more than 2 buttons. Imagine what will happen when the "most optimal" DPS setup is the equivalent of an MMO raid healer rotation. XD

"

Gordyne#2944 wrote:

"

Azimuthus#1135 wrote:

"

ARPGs that are in some way descended from Diablo 2 all have a relatively simple game loop:
kill monsters -> get better gear and level up -> kill bigger monsters -> get even better gear and level up -> ...

Naturally, every player quickly realizes that the faster they can execute this loop, the faster they can progress through the game, and experience content that they haven't previously seen.

The only way you'd get more deliberate combat is if you remove the incentive to increase the pace of this loop.

So, as a stupid example, you could say that during any 5 second interval only 1 monster can give you XP and drop items, thereby removing the incentive to build characters that can kill more than 1 monster every 5 seconds.

Or you could make it so that only the boss of an area gives you XP and drops items, but the boss arena only "unlocks" after you've been in the map for at least 2 minutes.

Every single thing I can think of sounds awful. If you want a slow ARPG, then I'm afraid that you'll have to throw 99% of this game in the bin and start over.

Correct. But no matter what you do here, still the key is "kill everyting as fast as possible". The only option to change smth in this fundamental formula is... "kills smth CREATIVELY for better drop" haha ) But that is really stupid.

So the only option remaining is making it hard to kill. One more stupid idea, that could actually work here (though zoomers' rage will be unthinkable): the more your DPS is, the less item quantity/rarity you have. HAHAHA ) Gods don't need treasures, do they? )

"Kill everything as fast as possible" this should still be the objective of ANY build. Meta or off meta

However PoE1 outright penalizes you if you don't do some sort of 1-2 max button spam.

So builds that wanted to have more skills to use just felt bad but they still want to be able to kill and improve the killing speed while not feeling useless by using multiple skills.

This is also known as having options.

And you can only have those options of 1-spam AND multiple skills/skill combos being viable if you slow the game down.

I mean, I don't even see it as slowing down, I see it as sanity. Because PoE 1 has absolute insane speed and damage scaling. It is not healthy in any way.

Speak for yourself. My autistic epileptic seizures are perfectly healthy!
/s

"

GregoryAdams#7051 wrote:

Imagine, next meta: "The DoT stacker - 1 ignite, 1 poison, 1 bleed, 1 of every curse, ..."
People are already mad when they have to press more than 2 buttons. Imagine what will happen when the "most optimal" DPS setup is the equivalent of an MMO raid healer rotation. XD

Nope. It just means that the time and opportunity cost you use on multiple different damage skills is not useless.
Nobody asked for it to be meta but they asked for it to not be terribly inneficient.

1- skill spam should work too.

GGG even stated it in an interview that they wanted people that use more skills to be rewarded for it