How can an ARPG fit a vision of more deliberate combat? A discussion thread

I see a lot of good ideas here, most of them embracing the tactical souls-like-ish gameplay and I think this is what PoE2 has to do, to establish itself.
I'm honest, if I want to play one-button, hyperspeed, screen swiping builds, I'll play D4, since the whole D4 game design is better suited for it, at least in my opinion.
On the other hand, I think most PoE players will be unhappy with the game, if all classes play like SSF geared lvl 50 warriors, which is kind of the dilemma GGG has to solve here.

I think to "fix" the game and embrace the slow, strategic, impactful gameplay with exciting boss fights, all meta builds need to be nerfed massively O_o. Skills like Spark just cannot be so strong that they insta-kill rare mobs 1 screen away.

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flowq#1283 wrote:

I see a lot of good ideas here, most of them embracing the tactical souls-like-ish gameplay and I think this is what PoE2 has to do, to establish itself.
I'm honest, if I want to play one-button, hyperspeed, screen swiping builds, I'll play D4, since the whole D4 game design is better suited for it, at least in my opinion.
On the other hand, I think most PoE players will be unhappy with the game, if all classes play like SSF geared lvl 50 warriors, which is kind of the dilemma GGG has to solve here.

I think to "fix" the game and embrace the slow, strategic, impactful gameplay with exciting boss fights, all meta builds need to be nerfed massively O_o. Skills like Spark just cannot be so strong that they insta-kill rare mobs 1 screen away.

Exactly! Well said! I hope to see more ideas here honestly, maybe some could serve as inspiration for GGG.

That being said, your remark about SSF geared lvl 50 warriors might be correct in the current landscape of the game, but with everything tuned correctly it might not feel as bad? No way to tell at the moment of course but I wanted to mention this because we often fall in the trap of evaluating things based on how they are now rather then how they could be in a different setting.

If I can be real for a moment:

The "A" in "arpg" is supposed to stand for "action".

Action in a video game would mean "having to actually engage with game mechanics and the flow of combat includes player effort and skill expression."
Deliberate, challenging combat.

So If all I'm doing is having a power fantasy where my overpowered character mows through weaker enemies without me really having to do anything, there's no action, ergo it would not be an arpg.

I've been playing some Last Epoch because someone got me a copy for Christmas.
I am disinclined to call it an arpg. All I've done is hold right click as my character waltzes through zones spamming the first ability I had. I don't even need to pay attention. It might as well be turn based.
It's an rpg, yes, and an isometric horde fighting rpg too. But not an arpg, because there's no a.
It's similar to part of why I haven't played PoE1 since they announced PoE2.

If I'm going to call a game an arpg, it needs to be an isometric horde clearer, but it also needs to actually have action.
For someone to ask about adding deliberate combat to an arpg, I can mostly only blink at the question because as far as I'm concerned it wasn't an arpg until the deliberate combat was added.

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The_Song#4903 wrote:

So If all I'm doing is having a power fantasy where my overpowered character mows through weaker enemies without me really having to do anything, there's no action, ergo it would not be an arpg.

Feel compelled to point out most people would describe your first sentence as 100% of what makes an arpg, at least when you've chosen/created the right build :p

Last epoch has some good legs for some builds but like all arpgs if you play an outlier its an absolute joke and if you play garbage it feels like quicksand. Honestly PoE 1 and 2 are both like this as well though 2 has the advantage of having a low bar right now in terms of damage requirements.

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eldheim#2436 wrote:

You can't please everyone with one game mode.
That much is clear.

Which is why I time and again advocate for a diversity of game modes to fit a broader audience. In terms of difficulty, length, drops, and accessability.

Why someone would argue against this, I do not know.
But somehow they do.

Because each additional mode doubles as a reduction in quality of all modes.
Splitting the developers time, resources, focus and anything else.
The most well made, well designed games have only one difficulty and only one mode.

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GregoryAdams#7051 wrote:

Imagine, next meta: "The DoT stacker - 1 ignite, 1 poison, 1 bleed, 1 of every curse, ..."

Man, that is literally my idea gameplay style.
The kind of build I try to make in every game where it's possible.
Saying "screw it" to benign raw damage and trying to stack up DoTs and status effects.