Seems the new Retaliation Skills were only a Pipe Dream after all...

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BaumisMagicalWorld wrote:

Practically nobody is using these, and it gets even worse when you start looking for builds using them as their main skill to build around. Seems like all the massive damage multipliers with an "on Block" condition aren't actually that fun or reliable to use in practice.

The "on Block" or "on getting Hit" is the big problem of them :).

In boss fights like Elder for example you can not block as the Elder himselve does not attack and uses no (?not sure?) block-able or DD attacks/spells.
So with a pure-retalian build it is imposible to kill him.

Same is true for some map-bosses.

And what's the point of a build if it is so limited? It feels like a pur wast of 6-links where as a block-char you just have 1 of many times (body).

PS: Old auto-retalian skill had been great at supporting clearspeed, aplay curses, leaching life/mana/es when you get swarmed by hords. Something you set up once and then never care about anymore. Like CastWhenDamageTaken setups :).
The new retalian skills might do insane DD damage IF and ONLY IF. If not -> you have better options for this gam-slots.

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Schakar wrote:

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BaumisMagicalWorld wrote:

Practically nobody is using these, and it gets even worse when you start looking for builds using them as their main skill to build around. Seems like all the massive damage multipliers with an "on Block" condition aren't actually that fun or reliable to use in practice.

The "on Block" or "on getting Hit" is the big problem of them :).

In boss fights like Elder for example you can not block as the Elder himselve does not attack and uses no (?not sure?) block-able or DD attacks/spells.
So with a pure-retalian build it is imposible to kill him.

Same is true for some map-bosses.

And what's the point of a build if it is so limited? It feels like a pur wast of 6-links where as a block-char you just have 1 of many times (body).

Stand in melee he does. Ice projectiles you can block as well. Tentacle whips. The Slam.


... You can block a bunch in this fight. And you can block the squids that show up.

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Schakar wrote:

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BaumisMagicalWorld wrote:

Practically nobody is using these, and it gets even worse when you start looking for builds using them as their main skill to build around. Seems like all the massive damage multipliers with an "on Block" condition aren't actually that fun or reliable to use in practice.

The "on Block" or "on getting Hit" is the big problem of them :).

In boss fights like Elder for example you can not block as the Elder himselve does not attack and uses no (?not sure?) block-able or DD attacks/spells.
So with a pure-retalian build it is imposible to kill him.

Same is true for some map-bosses.

And what's the point of a build if it is so limited? It feels like a pur wast of 6-links where as a block-char you just have 1 of many times (body).

He has a melee attack and the icicles shotgun is a spell in case you have spell block (which you should have).

People beat all ubers with retal skills you can find video evidence if you just try

OK ok I got it :) Elder has DDs.
Allways tryed to avoid this attacks so did not notice them *shame*.

What about all other endgame bosses? And map bosses? Do ALL of them have any form of block-able attack/spell? And more important: some I do not get one-shot by when my block fails?

As even as 75/75 (or better) block char I try-hard to avoid any incoming damage - I am realy not sure atm ^^.

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Schakar wrote:

OK ok I got it :) Elder has DDs.
Allways tryed to avoid this attacks so did not notice them *shame*.

What about all other endgame bosses? And map bosses? Do ALL of them have any form of block-able attack/spell? And more important: some I do not get one-shot by when my block fails?

As even as 75/75 (or better) block char I try-hard to avoid any incoming damage - I am realy not sure atm ^^.

There are no endgame bosses that cant be beat with block-related builds. The only enemies that you would struggle with if all your damage / clear is from block-related mechanics, are those pesky demon mobs that channel Blight and do nothing else. Real pests!

You of course shouldn't solely rely on block as defence as you want to tank hits to deal damage. Good mitigation is key to builds like yours

Plaza boss spams that green bombard bs constantly

I don't think there is any real boss that does degen only its just a dangerous occupation to run around deliberately getting clocked by the "right" enemy skills so that you can do your damage.

You can get quite a few uses out of one proc though if you are a retal chad glad

edit: I'm getting kinda tempted to do a retal build in gauntlet lmao as a probably doomed to fail flex

If you really wanted to, can't you also hit yourself which would then proc the block? I haven't done that in a long time so not sure if this is actually possible anymore...but I vaguely remember at some point running a build that would self-proc reckoning so that you never had to actually rely on enemies. Maybe I'm wrong on this.

But perhaps that will be the next round of unique items!

I looked in to that at the start of the league but there aren't reliable ways to force yourself to block. You can force yourself to get hit but you can't block them. At least from what I found.

I think if you want retaliation skills to work as a main you need a way to proc them yourself. Like said earlier in the topic. You can't require players to attempt to get hit by the right attacks to be able to use these skills.

It could be a nice idea for a unique shield though. Socketed skills are supported by expert retaliation. Every time you hit an enemy summon a spectre that hits you that is blockable, no more than once every second or something. Some nice block related stats, maybe an extra support to make it a 5 link.

I don't think the design idea however was to make them main link skills but support skills. I use Divine retirubtion to activate the more attack from my inquis ascendancy ( 3 spells in the last 10 seconds or w/e it is ). I think if I didn't have a lightning main skill I would use an overcharge support on it for a reliable source of shock. They can deal respectable damage on a 4 link too as some extra dps if you have the sockets to spare. There are a lot of use cases for these skills, even if they are hard to use as a main source of damage.

I thought that's what Vaal Breach is for. ^^

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mefistozxz wrote:

If you really wanted to, can't you also hit yourself which would then proc the block?

No, you cannot. All sources of self inflicted damage are coded as untyped Reflected Damage (still has a damage type). The only way to trigger them via Block is a source of Reflect and then blocking the reflected damage with Attack or Spell Block when you hit with an attack or spell, since you can block reflected damage this way. But that's about the only exception I know of.

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Impiousbe wrote:

I think if I didn't have a lightning main skill I would use an overcharge support on it for a reliable source of shock.

That's my main gripe with them. They serve no real purpose. Right now, they are only used for their insane damage multipliers.

IMO they should have something extra going, i.e. Crushing Fist applying Crushed, Divine Retribution applying Unnerved and/or Exposure, or something of the sorts - I am aware there are currently some special effects, i.e. on Glacial Shield Swipe - though that still wouldn't make them feel like they serve a real purpose. I.e.:

If Crushing Fist also applied a shockwave that sent a rock wall forward that pushed enemies back and then persisted for like 2 seconds to block incoming projectiles or so, it would actually serve a real purpose and would feel interesting to use.