Seems the new Retaliation Skills were only a Pipe Dream after all...

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ArtCrusade wrote:

Slow builds do just fine even in endgame scenarios.

See. If you are gonna make an argument, at least make sure you first fundamentally understand what you are arguing against. This isn't about slow speed builds being viable or not; there's a difference between a game's overall speed and players playing speedy builds. I mean, you are literally using Flamewood Support as your argument, a gem designed around Taunt and your totems getting hit. That's... completely irrelevant to the point that was made. It just shows to me that you have a problem understanding the fundamental design differences here.

[Removed by Support]

The new skills are awesome. Eviscerate slaps. The old ones didn't fit the new design space and nothing, absolutely nothing, of value was lost.

If you were a melee totem bro I would agree, they got nothing to compensate - straight up deleted. Retaliation skills are a massive W though.

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ArtCrusade wrote:

You were talking about slow games making slow skills feeling better.

Err... no. I was talking about rage mode and the like that gives your character a temporary power spike, which, by design, makes it FEEL BETTER in slower games. It's not my fault you keep misreading my posts and then replying with ad hominem.

Like, it seems you didn't understand that they are not in the same design space. I'm still allowed to point that out. That is not an insult, it's an observation. You are actively comparing two very different playstyles but are acting as if they are on the same playing field because they are comparatively "slow":

You can place Totems ahead of yourself from a safe distance, with Taunt making enemies aggro them, then have them launch a nuke near them. They are able to body block enemies or even able to create a "funnel" (300, anyone?) to make enemies easier to deal with. They are expendible.

And now you are saying, because, say, Crushing Fist is also a "nuke button" skill, they are somehow the same and "viable for everything". Two completely different concepts with completely different gameplay advantages and playstyles, and you wonder why I question your arguments.

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Ulsarek wrote:

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I like how your profile is absolutely bursting with Gladiators and block builds, really puts that opinion of yours into perspective. God, I wish I was as confident in my takes when criticizing something I haven't touched beyond surface level.

Here we go again with the ad hominem. You are aware that one can make multiple accounts and also create and delete characters, yes?

And by the way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7LJLPASIrs

I never play META builds. Doesn't mean I don't understand how builds work or what good and bad game design is.

I never implied they are the same. That assertion is your own. Retal and Flamewood are both "slow" builds that require build-up. Both the totems and retal builds require to get hit first. In that they are similar, but I never said they are the "same"

I also "observe" quite a bit from our "conversations" :-)

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ArtCrusade wrote:

I never implied they are the same. That assertion is your own.

I mean, when you literally reply to me with this

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ArtCrusade wrote:

Slow builds do just fine even in endgame scenarios. Flamewood totems was my goto for several leagues in HCSSF and I was running ALL content with it.

when the topic was Retaliation skills and PoE's gameplay loop, then that is pretty much implied as what you were saying, actually. Perhaps you need to articulate yourself better if you want me to understand you better. You continuously misread what I'm saying, which makes me inclined to believe the issue isn't on my end.

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BaumisMagicalWorld wrote:

That's what PoE 2 is for. Trying to shape PoE 1 into a different game than what made it successful is just a dumb thing to do. They could have added these gems and not remove the other three. Damage-wise, they are not even on the same playing field.

So, we've stablished that you, and not GGG, decides what PoE 1 and PoE 2 are "for". We've also established that their push these last years to make PoE 1 a more active game is "dumb". Glad we sorted that out. I'm sure you made a thread like this when they removed bound on left click and added the Automation gem, or when they added mana cost to triggers and auto casts. Or when they removed the spell tag on warcries so you couldn't automate them anymore.

My point here: They CLEARLY want to make PoE 1 more active, which isn't something new. And removing those gems is just the latest example.

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So, you didn't use them for damage. What were you using them for, that can't be done via some other mechanics? I mean, what made them SO useful?

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Phrazz wrote:

My point here: They CLEARLY want to make PoE 1 more active, which isn't something new. And removing those gems is just the latest example.

If you actually expect replies, you gotta stop with the ad hominem. And you are confusing adding opportunity cost with trying to add more active gameplay.

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Phrazz wrote:

So, you didn't use them for damage. What were you using them for, that can't be done via some other mechanics? I mean, what made them SO useful?

Life on Hit, Leech, Rage generation for CWDT + Berserk, Frenzy Charges, Mana Leech, Maim, Debilitate, Knockback, Taunt, etc. Nowadays, it takes a lot of extra hoops and more active gameplay. It's no longer a passive generator type of thing (that still required investment).

PoE was never the type of game where people wanted to press as many buttons as possible. There was always a tradeoff for automation, which was fine, but let's not pretend it was just "free" goodies for your build.

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This is such an odd post... apparently the OP cares so much about the Meta and is in disarray about retaliation skills, based on them being "bad" with no real data to back it up.



And in the same breath say they dont play Meta.

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BaumisMagicalWorld wrote:

I never play META builds. Doesn't mean I don't understand how builds work or what good and bad game design is.

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So essentially cares about builds they never interact with, while also saying retaliation skills are bad, which they also never interact with.


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Where's the ad hominem? You're just ignoring their arguments and personal perspectives while implying everyone else just doesn't understand your arguments.

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