Nameless Seer Prevents Player Agency

Bump, scrying needs to be itemized.

Not for nothing but the entire set of divination card changes is pretty meh, including the Seer mechanic.

"

Piousqd wrote:

-1,

1. The current mechanic is awesome
2. Forcing you to use up a valuable resource to use the system does a few things, all negative IMO.

a) Forces a bias towards more common value drops.
Example: currently, based on value/drop rates, mageblood and nimis cards just barely beat out the cards that reward raw divine. Result, players have multiple valid near-optimal options. IF you had to factor in the initial cost of scry, and that cost is the card being farmed, it would take a huge number of maps run to make scrying any jackpot cards worth it. Result, everyone would just scry the most common divine rewards card. Farming The Fortunate may be effective, but its so boring. #PingsThatSing

b) If you take the above into account, and adjust drop rates to mitigate, then you instead are just contributing to the streamer/power-player wealth snowball effect. Example: Week 1, only the lucky and try hard players can obtain a jackpot div card. They scry that card and farm more of those cards. By week 2-3 when others start to show up to the party, the rich are already richer and the value has dropped on the card.


GGG, as usual, has already figured out and implemented a clever and seemingly balanced solution to this, with the nameless seer scry.

Legitimately confused as to your conclusions here....

If you think the current system is awesome....how would this NOT be an improvement? It is exactly the same system, except more customizable and more self-correcting.

Forcing a bias towards more common drops: this is already the case....if you want to be "efficient", you aren't hunting mirror cards. You farm The Fortunate. How would this "new" system change that in any way? The bias is already there...and would still BE there. You can still farm the "common" card the original way, and any scrying would reduce the actual rate of that card for that player. So for players that actually DO hunt The Fortunate...if they were smart....would NOT be scrying it onto a different map with other cards diluting its rate way down.

No one is likely going to use "House of Mirrors" (as an example) to do something like this....unless they are the tippy tippy tippy top of the game. Because the odds of them getting another House of Mirrors cards is so low that it doesn't make any sense to "waste" one in order to potentially farm it on a different map. The market is strong enough that a card at this level won't change at all in value.

The actual up-front cost of using a card to scry it onto a map would do almost nothing to the market: because its likely that card is going to more available overall. So the market will find a happy medium between the upfront "cost" and the new availability. The values of certain cards may rise or fall, but that's nothing new league to league. They certainly aren't going to TANK or explode lol.

"

jsuslak313 wrote:

"

Piousqd wrote:

-1,

1. The current mechanic is awesome
2. Forcing you to use up a valuable resource to use the system does a few things, all negative IMO.

a) Forces a bias towards more common value drops.
Example: currently, based on value/drop rates, mageblood and nimis cards just barely beat out the cards that reward raw divine. Result, players have multiple valid near-optimal options. IF you had to factor in the initial cost of scry, and that cost is the card being farmed, it would take a huge number of maps run to make scrying any jackpot cards worth it. Result, everyone would just scry the most common divine rewards card. Farming The Fortunate may be effective, but its so boring. #PingsThatSing

b) If you take the above into account, and adjust drop rates to mitigate, then you instead are just contributing to the streamer/power-player wealth snowball effect. Example: Week 1, only the lucky and try hard players can obtain a jackpot div card. They scry that card and farm more of those cards. By week 2-3 when others start to show up to the party, the rich are already richer and the value has dropped on the card.


GGG, as usual, has already figured out and implemented a clever and seemingly balanced solution to this, with the nameless seer scry.

Legitimately confused as to your conclusions here....

If you think the current system is awesome....how would this NOT be an improvement? It is exactly the same system, except more customizable and more self-correcting.

Forcing a bias towards more common drops: this is already the case....if you want to be "efficient", you aren't hunting mirror cards. You farm The Fortunate. How would this "new" system change that in any way? The bias is already there...and would still BE there. You can still farm the "common" card the original way, and any scrying would reduce the actual rate of that card for that player. So for players that actually DO hunt The Fortunate...if they were smart....would NOT be scrying it onto a different map with other cards diluting its rate way down.

No one is likely going to use "House of Mirrors" (as an example) to do something like this....unless they are the tippy tippy tippy top of the game. Because the odds of them getting another House of Mirrors cards is so low that it doesn't make any sense to "waste" one in order to potentially farm it on a different map. The market is strong enough that a card at this level won't change at all in value.

The actual up-front cost of using a card to scry it onto a map would do almost nothing to the market: because its likely that card is going to more available overall. So the market will find a happy medium between the upfront "cost" and the new availability. The values of certain cards may rise or fall, but that's nothing new league to league. They certainly aren't going to TANK or explode lol.

Fortunate is not the most efficient. Currently, Mageblood and Nimis cards both have a slight advantage over Fortunate and the rest of the divine reward cards. (See sirgog's video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5qU1THA9sI)

^but that is ONLY based on the current league pricings. That won't stay true for any length of time. But the Div cards that reward divs maintain their value across leagues and mechanics. They are also far more reliable over the course of a "short" amount of time. The math that those guys point to assumes a HUGE amount of time farming only those cards and nothing else, which most people just aren't going to do.

Ex: Those cards might pay off more.....but at the thousand-hour mark, or even beyond that. Whereas, something like The Fortunate is going to be constantly paying out on an almost daily basis.

You need to look deeper than "current" values, and I don't even think that has anything to do with your reasons why the idea is a bad one.

Values will always adjust. The question is how will they adjust if we had this new mechanic. Your points just don't really make sense to me because most of what you said is....already true of the mechanic you say is great.

1) It doesn't force a bias, the bias already exists and will continue to exist unchanged. If this point you made were true....the same could be said about The Nameless Seer.

2) The actual drop rates wouldn't have to change. They would change by themselves, and balance accordingly, because whenever a player takes advantage of this system there is a cost in both the usage of the card, as well as a lower probability of finding that card because they are already choosing to dilute the pool with an additional card. So even if more cards overall enter the market because of this, the value wouldn't change too much because it would balance against the "new" rates that are automatically created. The "market" would adjust to the "average" new drop rate of the card which would consist of the average of the "normal" farm rate and the "new" diluted rate. It does this naturally, with no control needed.