Shock explaination and calculations

I would really appreciate explaination - like for the noob - on the example - how exactly calculate more damage from shock.
I read a wiki regarding shock and I'm still confused - I would like to have it completely clear.

Lets say its a Pinnacle Boss with like 10 milion life (an example).
My skill is doing an average hit 400k lightning damage multiply by 5 cast rate, without shock effect 1 600 000 dps (non crit ice nova of frostbolts - for simplification - not count the ice novas overlapps)

1) How many damage I need to do by my charakter to this boss to get 50% efect on this boss - or even better question - how long time I need to perform 1 600 000 dps to reach shock effect 50%? PoB shows like 50% more damage on shock effect 50%.
PoB shows Shock duration 2.4 sek - is it mean that during this time shock is stacking and after this time is not? How the shock effect is accumulutating (if it is)?

2) I expect some bosses may have some shock effect limits - how to check those limits for particular boss?

3) Same question for "not boss" enemy, just "Super rare" monster on map with 10 milion life for simplification - how many damage/time is needed to reach 50% shock effect?

4) How those numbers will change if i pick Lightning Mastery: "Increases and reduction to Maximum Mana apply to Shock at 30% of value" Mine Increase maximum mana is minimum 388% - just from tree - so assume this 30% from 388% - it is 116 of the shock. What it means exaclty.

5) What exactly is the shock treshold - when I pick more Shock it causes numbers to go crazy - over 1 200 000 000 (1.2) bilion for 5% treshold and 4 000 000 (4 milion) for 50% shock effect. What is the practical meaning of this tresholds values? It is some sort of strange that 5% of treshold requires 1.2 bilion while 50% required 4 milion. I thout opposite - more shock percentage requires more damage.
Without this "Inrease to mana - increase to shock at 30%..." values are much smaller - 291 milion for 5% and 922k for 50%. I'm completely confused - for the logical point of wiew - those mastery should reduce values to reach the 50% - whiles those numbers says the opposite - more "increase shock" we need to do more damage to reach 50%.

Summarizing all my questions above - if I know how many damage I need to do and in how long time (and how to calculate this - numbers changes) to to reach 50% i would be satifsied.

I would really appreciate for clearfication of this all. I can do maths but completetly cannot understand this all calculations regarding shock/shock treshhold.

first of all you have to understand that dps means NOTHING for shock value. you can have 100 million dps and still not have enough damage to shock anything

your hit size is what determines how big the shock will be. skills that hit a lot of times but for smaller amounts are bad if you want consistent shocks. if your hit size is enough to inflict a shock at 5% (0.32% of ailment threshold as lightning damage, without any shock effect), the enemy will be shocked. shocks smaller than 5% are discarded

ailment threshold % is different for rares and bosses, and it's pretty difficult to explain because it depends on way too many factors, you have to use the formula given in the wiki

Unfortunately, each monster has a Ailment Threshold number, which is usually a percent of its life. In some cases for bosses it seems close to 1/3 of life, however, this varies

So, your question cannot be answered perfectly. But lets say a boss has 10 million life.

Its ailment threshold might be around 3 million life.

If you do 1 million in a hit, thats 33 % of threshold, so per the table below (which uses the formula), your shock woudl be about 35%.

If you did 3 million per hit, your shock would be 50%.

Thats without things like increased shock effect.

Resulting shock effect --- Percentage of enemy's ailment threshold dealt as lightning damage

5% -- 0.32%
10% -- 1.79%
15% -- 4.93%
20% -- 10.12%
25% -- 17.68%
30% -- 27.89%
35% -- 41.00%
40% -- 57.24%
45% -- 76.84%
50% -- 100.00%

and just to add shock effect then multiplies the value from trixxar's list, so if you have 150% increased effect of ailments a 20% shock will hit the full 50% value.

That will also allow shocks that would be discarded to become relevant if you hit that 5% minimum.

Shocks can ramp up from their own effect too so if you hit for 1mil and apply a 20% shock, your next hit might hit for 1.2mil and apply a 25% and so on. Their base duration is 2 seconds each though and only the strongest applies.

Big Bosses: You can find their actual ailment thresholds on PoEDB

Shaper = about 7 million
Elder = about 6 million
Eater = about 4 million

etc.

"

Draegnarrr wrote:

and just to add shock effect then multiplies the value from trixxar's list, so if you have 150% increased effect of ailments a 20% shock will hit the full 50% value.

That will also allow shocks that would be discarded to become relevant if you hit that 5% minimum.

Shocks can ramp up from their own effect too so if you hit for 1mil and apply a 20% shock, your next hit might hit for 1.2mil and apply a 25% and so on. Their base duration is 2 seconds each though and only the strongest applies.

it doesn't work like that according to wiki, it's not a linear formula

(Edited: removed information that unsure if correct)

As above posters have mentioned, the wiki gives a pretty good explaination of all of this, even if it is a complicated mechanic, and PoeDB has the ailment threshold values. It is a bit hard to search for and read on PoeDB with so much different values, but it seems to be the most useful resource for getting this information.

I think this is an example of where jsuslak313 is suggesting to get the values from. You can see on the second grouping of values for shaper-

Ailment Threshold 6,957,767.

Sometimes certain bosses have lots of lots of different encounters and levels, so you need to make sure you are reading the information for the correct fight.

https://poedb.tw/us/The_Shaper#TheShaperTheShaperBoss

Thank you very much for answers, increased shock effect seems clear. Rest seams little more clear for me, but only little - I still dont know how to simply calculate for my character which dealing 400k spell lightining damage per hit, with 1 600 000 DPS (rate 4x) to reach shock 50% (lets assume 50% chance to shock - that is what PoB is showing)
- boss like Shaper mentioned above
- lets say standard rare enemy with 10 milion HP
Can sombody explain this simply - using the equeation and exact values of Damage/DPS in this equation?

Numbers are:
Enemy Life and/or shock treshhold (example values?)
Shock duration (PoB) - 2.4 sec
Character Chance to shock (50%)
Character Lightning Hit and Dps (400k, 1600k)

Question is:
How much DPS is needed by this character to reach 50% effect on particular enemy?

Is it better - for this characters - to take mastery "Inreased effect of shock by 30% of increased mana (which is like more than 100%)" or Increased maximum shock to 65% ??

Thank you

I think PoB shows u the value of ur shocks in relation to certain bosses. I'm not sure if the threshhold is the same for all pinnacles, but it shows at least one pinnacle threshhold.

Just slapped in an added lightning damage gem to my build to show how that looks like. With that damage I could get up to 13% shocks out of my hits against pinnacle bosses.
Also keep in mind, as others pointed out already, DPS doesn't mean anything with shocks. Only Damage per hit counts.



The question what is better, more effect or higher maximum is dependend if u already consistently get 50% shocks or not. If not, raising the maximum won't do anything.

/edit: considering ur 400k lightning damage without any shock effect u would probably get around 18% shocks on pinnacle bosses.

"

1 600 000 DPS (rate 4x) to reach shock 50% (lets assume 50% chance to shock - that is what PoB is showing)

Total DPS has no real bearing on this, that is what someone was saying before, 400k hit is the important value. Hitting multiple times will help you get shocks closer to the max of your lightning hits variable range, but to keep it simple lets just say it is hitting for 400k every hit before extra damage taken from shock values.

So if enemy ailment threshold is 10 million, you are doing 4% of the threshold per hit. From the table earlier in the thread, you can see that this will result in a shock value of about 15%. Actual value from wiki formula, 13.8% (E= .5*(400,000/10,000,000)^.4).

On the next hit, because the target is now shocked at 13.8%, it will take 13.8% more damage. Which means your hit of 400k, will now do 455k damage, and shock for 14.53%. Resulting in 458k damage on the next hit, 14.55% shock value. You will see that it starts to increase, but other than the difference between the first un-shocked shock hit and the the second shocked hit, the increases are pretty small. The shocks only last for 2 seconds, so if it drops off from not reapplying a shock within that 2 seconds it will go back to the first value.

Also, a fair bit of information I provided earlier in the thread was incorrect, so I have removed it. I said that you need less damage to get the last 5% from 45-50 than the first 5 %. This is incorrect. I had it the wrong way around. You can see in the table that to get the smallest value shock of 5 % on a 10 million ailment threshold, you would need to have a hit of 32k, but to go from 45% to 50%, you would need an extra 2.4 million.