PvP is Dead because there is no Character Identity -- Lacking Strength (not fire)

Every character magically transforms into another, chasing the dragon of more damage/defense layers. 1 melee hit becomes this becomes that gets Increase & More gets taken as etc.


The genres are rubble.

Numbers & Gems are basically mercurial Witchcraft. The gameplay is arguably Shadow.


No Strength.

Discuss.

Chris Wilson talked about this a few years back, I think on a Baeclast episode. They did a whole PVP-focused league, complete with a Swiss-matched PvP tournament which had a top-spec Alienware gaming laptop as its first prize. It flopped. Forsaken Masters performed so badly, in fact, that GGG did a thing that they never do: they pulled player telemetry data to try and figure out why.

What they learned was that 94% of PoE's players at that time not only did not give a single fuck about PvP, they didn't care about multi-player, either. 94% (or was it 96? it was one or the other) were playing the game solo.

PvP isn't so much dead, as stillborn. It didn't die; it never lived. Because only a single-digit percentage of the player ever gave a shit.

PvP is dead because it doesn't belong in this genre. There's a reason RTS and MOBA exist and became popular. Hint, it's not due to what you perceive as "no character identity".

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Ulsarek wrote:

PvP is dead because it doesn't belong in this genre. There's a reason RTS and MOBA exist and became popular. Hint, it's not due to what you perceive as "no character identity".

Is Elden Ring pvp also "doesn't belong" in the game? Poe pvp is dead because balance is destroyed, player dps vs ehp ratio is not suited for pvp. One "pvp damage reduction multiplier" cannot solve this when dps scaling ranges from 100k to 200M.

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Echothesis wrote:

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Ulsarek wrote:

PvP is dead because it doesn't belong in this genre. There's a reason RTS and MOBA exist and became popular. Hint, it's not due to what you perceive as "no character identity".

Is Elden Ring pvp also "doesn't belong" in the game? Poe pvp is dead because balance is destroyed, player dps vs ehp ratio is not suited for pvp. One "pvp damage reduction multiplier" cannot solve this when dps scaling ranges from 100k to 200M.

Tell me you don't know what you're talking about without telling me you don't know what you're talking about.

Elden Ring PvP works because it was built from the beginning with PvP in mind. Whereas in PoE (and D3, D4 et. cetera) PvP is merely an afterthought because D2 had it. And no, contrary to your opinion proper balance doesn't fix PoE PvP either. They tried with Exile Royale, you're around for long enough to remember how that worked out.

PvP in arpgs is just dog shit and not interesting enough because actual good alternatives exist.

Tell that to diablo immortal pvp community.

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Echothesis wrote:

Tell that to diablo immortal pvp community.

Alright, thank you for confirming that you're just trolling. Have a good day.

This game isn't - and will never be - balanced around PvP.

I have a couple of PvP games I play regularly, and one thing is certain; PvP becomes boring and frustrating REAL fast if it's unbalanced. And if someone thinks that PoE can even have a hint at balance when it comes to PvP, they really need to think again.

For PvP to work in PoE, they need to do one of two things:
- Completely rework the whole game
- Make PvP totally separated from the main game/passive tree. "It's won thing", so to speak.

The former is of course not going to happen, and the latter is just not worth the effort when we know that the vast majority of players couldn't care less about PvP.

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Ulsarek wrote:

PvP is dead because it doesn't belong in this genre. There's a reason RTS and MOBA exist and became popular. Hint, it's not due to what you perceive as "no character identity".

The playstyle of each character is not so distinct from one another once the high end alchemy and skill swapping begins. The meta is shapeshifting. The mechanics are coming and going in many places.

GGG is not pulling players into PvP on a marketing perceptual level, and they are not doing so on a mechanical playstyle/gameplay level.


The narrative is a bullrush, the game has you isolated and scavenging for parts. This is part of being washed up on the beach in hostile territory all alone. This is cool but the gameplay is about mowing down multiple enemies -- not anything like PvP where things are like a 1v1 or 2v2 or . . . 5v5

If you look at MOBA and RTS, there is a sense of inertia and build-up. In PoE, all the characters could go zoom and do 10 things you don't even have time to process before you lose/ die/ whatever.
You have very little way of knowing what you are up against.

Every character or civ or species begins weak and generic then carefully builds itself up in RTS and MOBA.

There is balance and a whole acclimation period to the start of each and every one of these other genre's PvP games.


This is why I believe it would be much Stronger to have a genre of character, a genre of playstyle, a genre of game mechanics, and Less "chasing the dragon"; their numbers are less square and more like 500 mile sky snake way.

I will bring attention to a simple illuminating silly phenomenon in PoE:
10% Reflected Damage Can Easily One-Shot You
and another, smaller phenomenon
It Takes 5x Armor To Block 1/2 of Damage

The more square the ratios, the easier it will be to have a Strong game. These ratios are skeletons, summoned.

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Phrazz wrote:

I have a couple of PvP games I play regularly, and one thing is certain; PvP becomes boring and frustrating REAL fast if it's unbalanced. And if someone thinks that PoE can even have a hint at balance when it comes to PvP, they really need to think again.

I think hints are possible.


The Plan For GGG:

Try and make Big Brush Strokes, look at other devs making PvP & their fans to get some 'sense' of things.

> Have PvP that starts Naked and at Level 1. Some skill or ability at Level 2.
> Have an End-Game where each Character is Not-Naked and Level 40.
> Introduce Items at Level 3. Keep them mostly generic throughout or very specific to the 'genre' of each character.
> Make XP faster. 1 hour to complete a match.
> Have some non-Player enemies or resources to get at Level 1.
> Start balancing the PvP game around these basic precepts.

< Consider what has changed, what is going on, where it's going, and how good it could be.
< Consider using your understanding to rework the PvE game once you've gone far enough in the PvP side.

Pre-set loadouts and limited items is very possible -- in fact necessary to find out what is actually the balance. You will notice how interesting the actual balance point is and what is game-breaking in PvP.

If this can all be done in a month it is a good and worthy effort -- You and Your Game will be more Square and Strong. Your mind expanded. Galaxy Brain. Big Up+. Min-Maxed.

Worthy effort.

Note to GGG: It seems your bosses don't like doing a move that sinks into the ground (slams?) then slashes towards player. I think this would be good. Very natural combo. Worth having. Especially with (Vaal) Axes and back-swings to players behind them (not giant bosses).