Please answer the previous questions as well, you seemed to avoid all of them entirely after responding directly to what I posted. Ill number them for you:
Spoiler
1) What are both of your frames of reference. There anything tangible or... a number we can put behind these claims?
When we say loot is "too much" and "loot fiestas" I just want to understand the magnitude we are talking here when we are comparing t16s vs t17s. What strategies as well?
2) What builds cant do t17s? Poorly put together or not ready builds? What builds are you referring to when you say "if you dont have a build..."?
3) But for t16s its okay? Why?
People dont farm guardians with scarabs? How do you know this?
4) Why do you want risk/reward for these maps to be a worse ratio than t16s?
30-50k gold on a T16 5 mod map?Sure, done 500+ City Square, 8 mod map 40%+ Pack size with harbinger clearing the entire map and in none of those came close to even 30k dont know where you are getting those numbers.
Im getting those numbers from running Strands over several hundred times, with domination/boxes. Do you want a stream of this? I can actually provide evidence of my claims if you want, but it would be under the parameter of you posting on this thread you didnt know how to spec your tree and what scarabs to bring for t16s. And that's why you average 15k gold per t16 map.
Let me know if that sounds like a good deal. I can full stream everything.
You say T17 are a content to aspire to, no. Pinnacle/Uber is a content to aspire to because it is well designed. T17 are still overtunned in terms of difficulty, some T17 bosses do ridiculous damage and the arenas are an ability spam fiesta, it is not good design.
They are aspirational content... theres no argument to have here. Its the highest tier map, with high rewards, specifically designed to test your character/knowledge/skill that that requires proper preparation.
Its Aspirational content. 100%
Theres nothing wrong with t17 boss damage and they dont spam anything?
Sounds like you dont know the mechanics from what I am seeing?
Which bosses do "ridiculous damage" and "are an ability spam fiesta" ?
As for numbers, check any of the dozens of videos of people that tested T16vsT17 strats and you will see a minimum of 10+div on the low side more profit. Difference in profit from T1 to T16 is the same as T16 to T17.
Link to these "dozens of videos of people" 16 versus 17.
I dont see them, would like to see what you are actually referring to or looking at.
The guy who makes the most currency in the game, Empyrian, has no videos on it, but actually videos to the contrary.
So I would really like to see what you are referring to when you say "check any dozens of videos of 16v17"
My char is about 140d deep (not gonna upgrade more), I can tank Uber Exarch Ball phase and Uber Shaper Slam, meanwhile with not crazy T17 mods I can get one shot by for example Citadel boss balls attack. Not overtunned at all.
Who asked?
You put a bunch of div into your character =/= you know what you are doing.
This also doesnt really mean anything, I dont know what mods you rolled on Citadel.
And honestly looking at your RF character.... you are straight lying about tanking these. I have more defensive's than your RF does against these and I cant do that.
You probably take 2-3 of these and then have to stop because without immortal call your character falls over. That's not "tanking Uber Exarch Ball Phase". So your post credibility just took a large hit with saying this honestly. Maybe stream what you are talking about.
And the only way you take uber shaper slam on your character, is if you hit immortal call right before it happens, and heres what happens if you did that without immortal call
So you dont tank either of these sadly. You're not hitting immortal call for every Shaper slam lol.
You are so hard defending T17s that you seem to be blind. Strongboxes with a 4.5 times Currency Multiplier hmmm feels like a pretty hard stepping stones to uber not like non stop loot fiesta :D.
So you are saying right now, that strong boxes in t17 give 4.5 times the loot than in t16? You really wanna say that?
I think you are mistaken, and if you do believe this, provide something tangible behind it.
Any source?
There are several videos out from Empyrian that generate 11-14 an hour so how much are you generating in t17s?
Making me question are you even running these? Or you just enjoy the easy loot shower and don´t wanna get that nerfed and acting like there is not much dropping? ;)
You can see my challenges, and deduce that I did run them, unlike your hidden ones.
Though I did not use them as a currency strategy because of how terrible it is to roll them and how much longer they are than t16s. I prefer Strands personally.
But I mean I did 50 of them so I did a good amount of them. I dont use t17s for loot.
Here we go. Reading is hard I know I know... Well 40/40 Challenges mean i did everything since you seem not being able to read the number. Well probably with your logic here i created new challenges to get to 40 I guess. Well whatever doesn´t matter.
And it goes on. Did you ever read a T17 Map? I mean like actually?
With simple reading skills the mod actually tells you where the information comes from, doe don´t forget the Atlas Tree aswell scaling these numbers higher.
I can´t take people serious when they talk about div/h. So you say Empyrian farms "11-14 div/h". Alright because he does you do aswell right? I mean surely you play as efficient and as much as he does. No way you wouldn´t better said everyone does since its in his guide "guaranteed 11-14 div/h".
Lets be honest to yourself. You are not.
And you can´t tell me anything since you don´t farm T17s for the actual loot. Doing 50 of them for the challenge is not the same vs farming them to make currency. And I´m pretty sure somewhere in this forum you wrote something like "You need more than 10 Chaos orbs rolling over T17s? How weak is your build?" So let me ask you, using 10 Chaos Orbs max is so annoying for you? Seems a bit strange to me. For me its not a discussion that you can´t make currency out of T17s, because thats just not true. Its more like all T17s should be doing is killing a boss which is challenging to prepare me for ubers. And i will stay with this.
But hey I will "unhide" my challenges so you can see I´m actually doing them since the only thing you want to see are the challenges right?
Hope you are enjoying your "11-14 div/h" strategy, which nobody asked for.
Here we go. Reading is hard I know I know... Well 40/40 Challenges mean i did everything since you seem not being able to read the number. Well probably with your logic here i created new challenges to get to 40 I guess. Well whatever doesn´t matter.
And it goes on. Did you ever read a T17 Map? I mean like actually?
With simple reading skills the mod actually tells you where the information comes from, doe don´t forget the Atlas Tree aswell scaling these numbers higher.
I can´t take people serious when they talk about div/h. So you say Empyrian farms "11-14 div/h". Alright because he does you do aswell right? I mean surely you play as efficient and as much as he does. No way you wouldn´t better said everyone does since its in his guide "guaranteed 11-14 div/h".
Lets be honest to yourself. You are not.
And you can´t tell me anything since you don´t farm T17s for the actual loot. Doing 50 of them for the challenge is not the same vs farming them to make currency. And I´m pretty sure somewhere in this forum you wrote something like "You need more than 10 Chaos orbs rolling over T17s? How weak is your build?" So let me ask you, using 10 Chaos Orbs max is so annoying for you? Seems a bit strange to me. For me its not a discussion that you can´t make currency out of T17s, because thats just not true. Its more like all T17s should be doing is killing a boss which is challenging to prepare me for ubers. And i will stay with this.
But hey I will "unhide" my challenges so you can see I´m actually doing them since the only thing you want to see are the challenges right?
Hope you are enjoying your "11-14 div/h" strategy, which nobody asked for.
Linking me that is 450% does not mean you are getting 4.5 times the loot. Do we need to talk about how loot works in POE? You think its guaranteed?
If it were the case it would be more broken and more lucrative than any strategy in the game, including sanctum.
Which its not.
So reading is hard indeed. You are framing 4.5x as if you are getting that much loot compared to t16s. Which you arent lmfao.
You are backtracking hard here, you did not mean "oh yeah its 4.5x with you know, the 4 maven chisels that I wont mention I rolled on this thing, so it would actually be 3.5x more because you get 100% more currency if you rolled that on a t16"
And I didnt "farm t17s". Yea I mean it doesnt really matter what I did or didnt as long as I have at least a basic understanding of the maps loot in general. Which 50 of them can give me that information. It would be one thing if I was saying all this and I ran 6 like the OP and then provided 0 data to back up anything.
Speaking of data:
I personally dont care for div/hr, I'm giving you actual tangible numbers we can compare, because unlike the OP and you; saying stuff like "loot fiestas" and "too much loot" doesnt mean anything. Theres no point of reference to compare but a "trust me bro" broad approach.
Which doesnt help either the developers who may make changes, or us. Your feelings on loot with "loot pinata" and "loot fiestas" versus actual numbers, Ill take data based analysis versus someones feelings.
Both are error prone, but "loot pinata" and "loot fiesta" has a much higher magnitude and biased approach than div/hr if we are being honest with ourselves.
When we look at the actual numbers we dont see this chasm of difference that you and the OP seem to be framing. You arent getting 4.5x the loot, you are barely getting 2x the loot, and thats from people who play this game as a career; like you mentioned I am not Empyrian. Or Fubgun.
The t16 strategies I am using from Empyrian as an example, search Based or Cringe on youtube for those. He undersells many of his profits and invests small because he's self aware of his viewers. So... any person could really do 11-14 on these easily.
So evidence wise, no. T17s arent over the top for loot at all for the respective difficulty. And they definitely arent giving you 4.5x the loot of a t16.
These are in conflict with each other might want to correct yourself again.
Surely people pay 100c+ per T17 map to get a bit more than a T16 you're totally right.
Scarcity. People are also willing to pay 20c+ for a Hunter Conqueror map that doesn't even need to be tier 16. So, this is about 4-5 less. However, conqueror maps are way, waaaaaay easier to get than T17 maps. I have so far sold hundreds and hundreds of them, probably close to 500. Meanwhile, so far I've only managed to find 120 T17 maps.
If T17 are made more common you can be sure their price would drop down to 30-40c.
Here we go. Reading is hard I know I know... Well 40/40 Challenges mean i did everything since you seem not being able to read the number. Well probably with your logic here i created new challenges to get to 40 I guess. Well whatever doesn´t matter.
And it goes on. Did you ever read a T17 Map? I mean like actually?
With simple reading skills the mod actually tells you where the information comes from, doe don´t forget the Atlas Tree aswell scaling these numbers higher.
I can´t take people serious when they talk about div/h. So you say Empyrian farms "11-14 div/h". Alright because he does you do aswell right? I mean surely you play as efficient and as much as he does. No way you wouldn´t better said everyone does since its in his guide "guaranteed 11-14 div/h".
Lets be honest to yourself. You are not.
And you can´t tell me anything since you don´t farm T17s for the actual loot. Doing 50 of them for the challenge is not the same vs farming them to make currency. And I´m pretty sure somewhere in this forum you wrote something like "You need more than 10 Chaos orbs rolling over T17s? How weak is your build?" So let me ask you, using 10 Chaos Orbs max is so annoying for you? Seems a bit strange to me. For me its not a discussion that you can´t make currency out of T17s, because thats just not true. Its more like all T17s should be doing is killing a boss which is challenging to prepare me for ubers. And i will stay with this.
But hey I will "unhide" my challenges so you can see I´m actually doing them since the only thing you want to see are the challenges right?
Hope you are enjoying your "11-14 div/h" strategy, which nobody asked for.
Linking me that is 450% does not mean you are getting 4.5 times the loot. Do we need to talk about how loot works in POE? You think its guaranteed?
If it were the case it would be more broken and more lucrative than any strategy in the game, including sanctum.
Which its not.
So reading is hard indeed. You are framing 4.5x as if you are getting that much loot compared to t16s. Which you arent lmfao.
You are backtracking hard here, you did not mean "oh yeah its 4.5x with you know, the 4 maven chisels that I wont mention I rolled on this thing, so it would actually be 3.5x more because you get 100% more currency if you rolled that on a t16"
And I didnt "farm t17s". Yea I mean it doesnt really matter what I did or didnt as long as I have at least a basic understanding of the maps loot in general. Which 50 of them can give me that information. It would be one thing if I was saying all this and I ran 6 like the OP and then provided 0 data to back up anything.
Speaking of data:
I personally dont care for div/hr, I'm giving you actual tangible numbers we can compare, because unlike the OP and you; saying stuff like "loot fiestas" and "too much loot" doesnt mean anything. Theres no point of reference to compare but a "trust me bro" broad approach.
Which doesnt help either the developers who may make changes, or us. Your feelings on loot with "loot pinata" and "loot fiestas" versus actual numbers, Ill take data based analysis versus someones feelings.
Both are error prone, but "loot pinata" and "loot fiesta" has a much higher magnitude and biased approach than div/hr if we are being honest with ourselves.
When we look at the actual numbers we dont see this chasm of difference that you and the OP seem to be framing. You arent getting 4.5x the loot, you are barely getting 2x the loot, and thats from people who play this game as a career; like you mentioned I am not Empyrian. Or Fubgun.
The t16 strategies I am using from Empyrian as an example, search Based or Cringe on youtube for those. He undersells many of his profits and invests small because he's self aware of his viewers. So... any person could really do 11-14 on these easily.
So evidence wise, no. T17s arent over the top for loot at all for the respective difficulty. And they definitely arent giving you 4.5x the loot of a t16.
These are in conflict with each other might want to correct yourself again.
And you can´t tell me anything since you don´t farm T17s for the actual loot.
It´s easy. Everything you say doesn´t matter before you didn´t try it yourself. There is a reason better players farming these. There is a reason why scarabs are prices for T17s. At least the profitable scarabs.
I ran over 100 T17s with strongboxes I think i have pretty much a better idea about this than you do.
And just for you, the multiplier does indeed matter a LOT. But well you will never know I guess. I think its useless to keep replying to someone who just getting data from other players or guides ;).
It´s easy. Everything you say doesn´t matter before you didn´t try it yourself. There is a reason better players farming these. There is a reason why scarabs are prices for T17s. At least the profitable scarabs.
I ran over 100 T17s with strongboxes I think i have pretty much a better idea about this than you do.
And just for you, the multiplier does indeed matter a LOT. But well you will never know I guess. I think its useless to keep replying to someone who just getting data from other players or guides ;).
Good luck on your 11-14 div/h way Exile.
Ah so another one of your inconsistent, and this time dismissive comments. Okay then
Why are you agreeing with the OP's opinions on t17s? When they have done less t17s than I have?
Your entire argument here is "you didnt do it so what would you know?"
So because MashGesture hasnt farmed t17s with a currency making strategy:
Apply this same logic to the OP before posting this BS of a response to me. You have had a massive lapse in judgement and many other virtues here my friend.
Its posts like yours that are the reason nothing gets read by the developers in feedback. A bunch of 0 data, and inconsistent... or let me quote what was said prior to league launch by an actual developer;
"i'm not going to read this thing that has just a bunch of passive aggressive, or not even passive aggressive, just aggressiveness in it..."
Mash the clean
Last edited by Mashgesture on Aug 27, 2024, 2:13:02 AM
It´s easy. Everything you say doesn´t matter before you didn´t try it yourself. There is a reason better players farming these. There is a reason why scarabs are prices for T17s. At least the profitable scarabs.
I ran over 100 T17s with strongboxes I think i have pretty much a better idea about this than you do.
And just for you, the multiplier does indeed matter a LOT. But well you will never know I guess. I think its useless to keep replying to someone who just getting data from other players or guides ;).
Good luck on your 11-14 div/h way Exile.[/quote]
...better players. make me lol harder. it's not worse or better players - its meta vs non-meta players. t17 killed any diversity. last league was the 1st league league i go for meta build and destroyed the end game. before that i used to beat ubers with all kind of strange self made builds - but those days are gone. 27% of top end builds use lightning strike - just as you do. keep following the few meta build and tell yourself you are good and everything is fine with poe.
It´s easy. Everything you say doesn´t matter before you didn´t try it yourself. There is a reason better players farming these. There is a reason why scarabs are prices for T17s. At least the profitable scarabs.
I ran over 100 T17s with strongboxes I think i have pretty much a better idea about this than you do.
And just for you, the multiplier does indeed matter a LOT. But well you will never know I guess. I think its useless to keep replying to someone who just getting data from other players or guides ;).
Good luck on your 11-14 div/h way Exile.
Ah so another one of your inconsistent, and this time dismissive comments. Okay then
Why are you agreeing with the OP's opinions on t17s? When they have done less t17s than I have?
Your entire argument here is "you didnt do it so what would you know?"
So because MashGesture hasnt farmed t17s with a currency making strategy:
Apply this same logic to the OP before posting this BS of a response to me. You have had a massive lapse in judgement and many other virtues here my friend.
Its posts like yours that are the reason nothing gets read by the developers in feedback. A bunch of 0 data, and inconsistent... or let me quote what was said prior to league launch by an actual developer;
"i'm not going to read this thing that has just a bunch of passive aggressive, or not even passive aggressive, just aggressiveness in it..."
First, actually import my full character to POB before talking crap what I can and cannot tank, second you want to see the diference in strats,okay.
Just a tiny little bit of research in some mechanics, not gonna post all of T17 mechanic because I already know that even with pure spreadsheet numbers, you still will think you are right.
Since you like numbers so much every single video has a spreadsheet layed down with the costs and profit of everything, now replicate it in T16 and I would really like to see how much you get. Do something other than talk.
You talk about feedback?I already gave it but since you obviously do not have the ability to understand what you read:
• T17 were created as a middle ground between pinnacle and uber pinnacle, they failed miserably.
• They were created as a way to farm uber fragments, preparing you for the uber fights by fighting monsters harder than pinnacle content, so there is no reason for them to be way better than T16 in terms of map loot.
• Remove the ability to use scarabs in T17 and use atlas tree in T17, only purpose T17 will have is go in, fight the map boss and gain "experience" in terms of boss fighting and get uber fragments.
First, actually import my full character to POB before talking crap what I can and cannot tank, second you want to see the diference in strats,okay.
I did import your full RF character, I even turned on your endurance charges and flasks that you will not have up for all of this, and you die without immortal call to Ushaper slam 100%.
You also dont tank Excarch balls with your character. You run into 2 maybe 3 and then you have to dodge. Thats not tanking UExarch balls thats normal gameplay. And if you are using immortal call with no dog chasing you, you arent regenerating your endurance charges during this phase. You dont have the infinite power ascendancy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIOlkkWGCZQ
Travic strat where he references Fubguns for profit.
Mage blood build as well.... not really something to find as an example...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6btt4LGZUM
Empyrian 10 div/h near alch and go strategy
Note about these, these aren't even his strategies, these are his community sending in requests for him. So its not like we cant do these lol.
So as we can see the difference between t16 and 17 strats aren't even large. We are talking sub 10 divs in all cases. Not even twice the amount of income. There are others out there, some guy doing cards as well with a 10-15 div/h... its all available.
Hopefully this clears up this falsehood you and the other person had of this enourmous gap in loot you are getting in t17s versus t16s.
• T17 were created as a middle ground between pinnacle and uber pinnacle, they failed miserably.
• They were created as a way to farm uber fragments, preparing you for the uber fights by fighting monsters harder than pinnacle content, so there is no reason for them to be way better than T16 in terms of map loot.
• Remove the ability to use scarabs in T17 and use atlas tree in T17, only purpose T17 will have is go in, fight the map boss and gain "experience" in terms of boss fighting and get uber fragments.
And I disagree with all of these points you put above.
• T17s are comically easy now. And if you really need an unlock just use a bisection scarab.
• There is a reason for them to have better loot than a t16... you cant scour them, have to reroll them with chaos, they have different and higher difficulty of modifiers than normal, and they are a higher tier.
• If you actually want this, then just make it a fragment to a boss room. Why would I want a map for this?
