T17 Rework

I think T17 are too rewarding compared to T16, from T1 to T16 the rewards gradually improve until you reach T16, but the difference between T16 to T17 is just too much.

If you dont have a build that can handle T17 (even after the nerfs I feel the mapping is fine but some bosses are still too overtunned), you are loosing on so much currency compared to even 8mod T16.

I think T17 should only have the purpose they were created for: a better way to get uber fragments and experience a difficulty between pinnacle and ubers.

If you make it so you cant use scarabs and your atlas tree doesn't influence T17 maps, it would not only improve the prices of uber fragments, making it so more people attempt them (its like 6div for some uber bosses per attempt, and if you just want to test how ubers are it may be too expensive for you) but also make it so you dont feel so left out because of the gap between both tiers.

TLDR: Make it so T17 work almost the same way as guardian maps, you dont farm guardians with scarabs for currency, you use them to get fragments, T17 should only have that purpose too.

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FearZGamer wrote:

I think T17 are too rewarding compared to T16, from T1 to T16 the rewards gradually improve until you reach T16, but the difference between T16 to T17 is just too much.

If you dont have a build that can handle T17 (even after the nerfs I feel the mapping is fine but some bosses are still too overtunned), you are loosing on so much currency compared to even 8mod T16.

I think T17 should only have the purpose they were created for: a better way to get uber fragments and experience a difficulty between pinnacle and ubers.

If you make it so you cant use scarabs and your atlas tree doesn't influence T17 maps, it would not only improve the prices of uber fragments, making it so more people attempt them (its like 6div for some uber bosses per attempt, and if you just want to test how ubers are it may be too expensive for you) but also make it so you dont feel so left out because of the gap between both tiers.

TLDR: Make it so T17 work almost the same way as guardian maps, you dont farm guardians with scarabs for currency, you use them to get fragments, T17 should only have that purpose too.

I dont struggle with T17s but still think they are "loot fiestas" compared to "normal" maps. Going in killing boss and going out, kinda the intention they should aim for these.

"

TayPoE wrote:

"

FearZGamer wrote:

I think T17 are too rewarding compared to T16, from T1 to T16 the rewards gradually improve until you reach T16, but the difference between T16 to T17 is just too much.

If you dont have a build that can handle T17 (even after the nerfs I feel the mapping is fine but some bosses are still too overtunned), you are loosing on so much currency compared to even 8mod T16.

I think T17 should only have the purpose they were created for: a better way to get uber fragments and experience a difficulty between pinnacle and ubers.

If you make it so you cant use scarabs and your atlas tree doesn't influence T17 maps, it would not only improve the prices of uber fragments, making it so more people attempt them (its like 6div for some uber bosses per attempt, and if you just want to test how ubers are it may be too expensive for you) but also make it so you dont feel so left out because of the gap between both tiers.

TLDR: Make it so T17 work almost the same way as guardian maps, you dont farm guardians with scarabs for currency, you use them to get fragments, T17 should only have that purpose too.

I dont struggle with T17s but still think they are "loot fiestas" compared to "normal" maps. Going in killing boss and going out, kinda the intention they should aim for these.

Exactly what I would want. Even gold difference is absurd, an 8mod T16 gives me average 15k gold, a single T17 map using no scarabs and doing 0 mechanics, just clearing the map, gave me 50k.

"

FearZGamer wrote:

Exactly what I would want. Even gold difference is absurd, an 8mod T16 gives me average 15k gold, a single T17 map using no scarabs and doing 0 mechanics, just clearing the map, gave me 50k.

Sounds like you are under representing t16s.

If you are getting an average of 15k on t16, that is extremely low. Average for me on t16 is anywhere from 30-50k on a 5-6 mod map. T17s were anywhere from 40-80.

So with an 8 mod, id get pretty close to the target range of t17s, maybe 20% less if I actually bothered to regex buy 8 mod t16s this league. Didnt need or wanted to though.

"

FearZGamer wrote:

I think T17 are too rewarding compared to T16, from T1 to T16 the rewards gradually improve until you reach T16, but the difference between T16 to T17 is just too much.

"

TayPoE wrote:

I dont struggle with T17s but still think they are "loot fiestas" compared to "normal" maps. Going in killing boss and going out, kinda the intention they should aim for these.

What are both of your frames of reference. There anything tangible or... a number we can put behind these claims?

When we say loot is "too much" and "loot fiestas" I just want to understand the magnitude we are talking here when we are comparing t16s vs t17s. What strategies as well?




Further questions for the OP though:

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FearZGamer wrote:

If you dont have a build that can handle T17... but some bosses are still too overtunned

Then you dont get to do t17s. Hows this any different from not being able to do Uber Bosses?

What builds cant do t17s? Poorly put together or not ready builds? What builds are you referring to when you say "if you dont have a build..."?

"

FearZGamer wrote:

you dont farm guardians with scarabs for currency

But for t16s its okay? Why?

People dont farm guardians with scarabs? How do you know this?

"

FearZGamer wrote:

I think T17 should only have the purpose they were created for: a better way to get uber fragments and experience a difficulty between pinnacle and ubers.

So I should be presented with difficulty at that level, but ... not rewarded at all for it?

These maps aren't comparable to the normal map pool because of the mods they have, and the way they are rolled. Why should I get rewarded less for having not only to roll maps with chaos, but also having a much higher bar for risk with the mods on these maps?

Why do you want risk/reward for these maps to be a worse ratio than t16s?

"

FearZGamer wrote:

If you make it so you cant use scarabs and your atlas tree doesn't influence T17 maps, it would not only improve the prices of uber fragments

There are two bosses that are actually expensive, Maven and Eater. The rest of them cost nothing. Reason is for their drops.

Maven drops awakened gems, and uber drops awakened exceptionals/impossible escapes/progenesis

UEater drops Nimis.

"

FearZGamer wrote:

but also make it so you dont feel so left out because of the gap between both tiers.

This is something I absolutely wont get behind. This is a typical FOMO argument. T17s are pinnacle content, they have requirements and aspirational goals behind them. You dont meet those requirements, you have something to aspire to.

This league they threw out things so people could get their scarab slot, that being bisection scarabs. AND they nerfed t17s as well, heavily. They are approachable this league by any build that is properly put together.

30-50k gold on a T16 5 mod map?Sure, done 500+ City Square, 8 mod map 40%+ Pack size with harbinger clearing the entire map and in none of those came close to even 30k dont know where you are getting those numbers.

You say T17 are a content to aspire to, no. Pinnacle/Uber is a content to aspire to because it is well designed. T17 are still overtunned in terms of difficulty, some T17 bosses do ridiculous damage and the arenas are an ability spam fiesta, it is not good design.

As for numbers, check any of the dozens of videos of people that tested T16vsT17 strats and you will see a minimum of 10+div on the low side more profit. Difference in profit from T1 to T16 is the same as T16 to T17.

My char is about 140d deep (not gonna upgrade more), I can tank Uber Exarch Ball phase and Uber Shaper Slam, meanwhile with not crazy T17 mods I can get one shot by for example Citadel boss balls attack. Not overtunned at all.

"

Mashgesture wrote:

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FearZGamer wrote:

Exactly what I would want. Even gold difference is absurd, an 8mod T16 gives me average 15k gold, a single T17 map using no scarabs and doing 0 mechanics, just clearing the map, gave me 50k.

Sounds like you are under representing t16s.

If you are getting an average of 15k on t16, that is extremely low. Average for me on t16 is anywhere from 30-50k on a 5-6 mod map. T17s were anywhere from 40-80.

So with an 8 mod, id get pretty close to the target range of t17s, maybe 20% less if I actually bothered to regex buy 8 mod t16s this league. Didnt need or wanted to though.

"

FearZGamer wrote:

I think T17 are too rewarding compared to T16, from T1 to T16 the rewards gradually improve until you reach T16, but the difference between T16 to T17 is just too much.

"

TayPoE wrote:

I dont struggle with T17s but still think they are "loot fiestas" compared to "normal" maps. Going in killing boss and going out, kinda the intention they should aim for these.

What are both of your frames of reference. There anything tangible or... a number we can put behind these claims?

When we say loot is "too much" and "loot fiestas" I just want to understand the magnitude we are talking here when we are comparing t16s vs t17s. What strategies as well?




Further questions for the OP though:

"

FearZGamer wrote:

If you dont have a build that can handle T17... but some bosses are still too overtunned

Then you dont get to do t17s. Hows this any different from not being able to do Uber Bosses?

What builds cant do t17s? Poorly put together or not ready builds? What builds are you referring to when you say "if you dont have a build..."?

"

FearZGamer wrote:

you dont farm guardians with scarabs for currency

But for t16s its okay? Why?

People dont farm guardians with scarabs? How do you know this?

"

FearZGamer wrote:

I think T17 should only have the purpose they were created for: a better way to get uber fragments and experience a difficulty between pinnacle and ubers.

So I should be presented with difficulty at that level, but ... not rewarded at all for it?

These maps aren't comparable to the normal map pool because of the mods they have, and the way they are rolled. Why should I get rewarded less for having not only to roll maps with chaos, but also having a much higher bar for risk with the mods on these maps?

Why do you want risk/reward for these maps to be a worse ratio than t16s?

"

FearZGamer wrote:

If you make it so you cant use scarabs and your atlas tree doesn't influence T17 maps, it would not only improve the prices of uber fragments

There are two bosses that are actually expensive, Maven and Eater. The rest of them cost nothing. Reason is for their drops.

Maven drops awakened gems, and uber drops awakened exceptionals/impossible escapes/progenesis

UEater drops Nimis.

"

FearZGamer wrote:

but also make it so you dont feel so left out because of the gap between both tiers.

This is something I absolutely wont get behind. This is a typical FOMO argument. T17s are pinnacle content, they have requirements and aspirational goals behind them. You dont meet those requirements, you have something to aspire to.

This league they threw out things so people could get their scarab slot, that being bisection scarabs. AND they nerfed t17s as well, heavily. They are approachable this league by any build that is properly put together.

You are so hard defending T17s that you seem to be blind. Strongboxes with a 4.5 times Currency Multiplier hmmm feels like a pretty hard stepping stones to uber not like non stop loot fiesta :D.

Make the bosses hard and just left the bosses on T17s thats about it. The only real way to present them.

In numbers, at least 2 Valdos Maps a map for me, not to mention all the eldritch chaos orbs / divine orbs / and divination cards like Samurais Eye which drops like candy. Oh btw also Scarabs are there aswell. Yeah yeah the 4.5 Multipliers nothing tooooo crazy :) incredible that you even need someone all the time to explain you how much shit drops there.

Making me question are you even running these? Or you just enjoy the easy loot shower and don´t wanna get that nerfed and acting like there is not much dropping? ;)

Having non Uber bosses drop the Uber keys would fix a lot of problems non uber bossing has right now.
On the other hand I enjoy the free money from selling the T17's I don't run myself too much so please don't ^^

Please answer the previous questions as well, you seemed to avoid all of them entirely after responding directly to what I posted. Ill number them for you:

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FearZGamer wrote:

30-50k gold on a T16 5 mod map?Sure, done 500+ City Square, 8 mod map 40%+ Pack size with harbinger clearing the entire map and in none of those came close to even 30k dont know where you are getting those numbers.

Im getting those numbers from running Strands over several hundred times, with domination/boxes. Do you want a stream of this? I can actually provide evidence of my claims if you want, but it would be under the parameter of you posting on this thread you didnt know how to spec your tree and what scarabs to bring for t16s. And that's why you average 15k gold per t16 map.

Let me know if that sounds like a good deal. I can full stream everything.

"

FearZGamer wrote:

You say T17 are a content to aspire to, no. Pinnacle/Uber is a content to aspire to because it is well designed. T17 are still overtunned in terms of difficulty, some T17 bosses do ridiculous damage and the arenas are an ability spam fiesta, it is not good design.

They are aspirational content... theres no argument to have here. Its the highest tier map, with high rewards, specifically designed to test your character/knowledge/skill that that requires proper preparation.


Its Aspirational content. 100%


Theres nothing wrong with t17 boss damage and they dont spam anything?

Sounds like you dont know the mechanics from what I am seeing?

Which bosses do "ridiculous damage" and "are an ability spam fiesta" ?

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FearZGamer wrote:

As for numbers, check any of the dozens of videos of people that tested T16vsT17 strats and you will see a minimum of 10+div on the low side more profit. Difference in profit from T1 to T16 is the same as T16 to T17.

Link to these "dozens of videos of people" 16 versus 17.

I dont see them, would like to see what you are actually referring to or looking at.

The guy who makes the most currency in the game, Empyrian, has no videos on it, but actually videos to the contrary.

So I would really like to see what you are referring to when you say "check any dozens of videos of 16v17"

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FearZGamer wrote:

My char is about 140d deep (not gonna upgrade more), I can tank Uber Exarch Ball phase and Uber Shaper Slam, meanwhile with not crazy T17 mods I can get one shot by for example Citadel boss balls attack. Not overtunned at all.

Who asked?

You put a bunch of div into your character =/= you know what you are doing.

This also doesnt really mean anything, I dont know what mods you rolled on Citadel.

And honestly looking at your RF character.... you are straight lying about tanking these. I have more defensive's than your RF does against these and I cant do that.

You probably take 2-3 of these and then have to stop because without immortal call your character falls over. That's not "tanking Uber Exarch Ball Phase". So your post credibility just took a large hit with saying this honestly. Maybe stream what you are talking about.

And the only way you take uber shaper slam on your character, is if you hit immortal call right before it happens, and heres what happens if you did that without immortal call


So you dont tank either of these sadly. You're not hitting immortal call for every Shaper slam lol.

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TayPoE wrote:

You are so hard defending T17s that you seem to be blind. Strongboxes with a 4.5 times Currency Multiplier hmmm feels like a pretty hard stepping stones to uber not like non stop loot fiesta :D.

So you are saying right now, that strong boxes in t17 give 4.5 times the loot than in t16? You really wanna say that?

I think you are mistaken, and if you do believe this, provide something tangible behind it.

Any source?

There are several videos out from Empyrian that generate 11-14 an hour so how much are you generating in t17s?

I can tell ya its not 50-68 div/hr.

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TayPoE wrote:

Making me question are you even running these? Or you just enjoy the easy loot shower and don´t wanna get that nerfed and acting like there is not much dropping? ;)

You can see my challenges, and deduce that I did run them, unlike your hidden ones.

Though I did not use them as a currency strategy because of how terrible it is to roll them and how much longer they are than t16s. I prefer Strands personally.

But I mean I did 50 of them so I did a good amount of them. I dont use t17s for loot.

Well, if T16 are so worthless I wouldn't be selling hundreds of them every day. And the guys who buy them clearly have magebloods so they are not exactly dirty casuals. I don't think the philosophy "do T17 or you'll be left behind" works. I haven't done a single T17 yet I easily sit on 1,000 divines.

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FearZGamer wrote:

30-50k gold on a T16 5 mod map?Sure, done 500+ City Square, 8 mod map 40%+ Pack size with harbinger clearing the entire map and in none of those came close to even 30k dont know where you are getting those numbers.

You say T17 are a content to aspire to, no. Pinnacle/Uber is a content to aspire to because it is well designed. T17 are still overtunned in terms of difficulty, some T17 bosses do ridiculous damage and the arenas are an ability spam fiesta, it is not good design.

As for numbers, check any of the dozens of videos of people that tested T16vsT17 strats and you will see a minimum of 10+div on the low side more profit. Difference in profit from T1 to T16 is the same as T16 to T17.

My char is about 140d deep (not gonna upgrade more), I can tank Uber Exarch Ball phase and Uber Shaper Slam, meanwhile with not crazy T17 mods I can get one shot by for example Citadel boss balls attack. Not overtunned at all.

I get 40k on jungle valley with strongboxes, beyond and 20% deli sometimes and i don't even use item rarity support. Just an automated item rarity flask. I would assume it is possible to get 50k with said support gem, but probably not every map.