Rising awareness about Path of Building unintended negative consequences.

"

Judicas wrote:

The problem is that the devs have made a masters degree in poe a requirement to even play. You have 15k+ hours you said in poe, that means you "should" know the pitfalls of the game. You can view the game like a running trail, except with landmines, punji traps, wild aggressive animals, people with guns trying to shoot you, ohh and you put a blindfold on.... POB just gives you a map to try and help you not kill yourself trying to get to the end of the trail. Ohh and the Devs even regularly nerf rewards hiding these pitfalls even further and making it even harder to play.

People don't want to play trash, they want something relatively decent. Why should they waste the first month of the league finding out what they planned or wanted to try is a complete waste of time, putting them even further behind people that use pob.

A lot of people that play will simply get frustrated with stupid nerfs or horrible changes to skills and just quit.

Lets also be real here, you didn't get better without POB, you just no longer see how much worse you are, you embraced the "feels" without concrete evidence to support it. If you have nothing to compare to then you are the perfect little snowflake.

"

BaumisMagicalWorld wrote:

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Gordyne wrote:

Really no offense meant, but this just shows me that you don't know how to build a character properly in GD. Send me a PM and I'll show you how in-depth it can be done. "Pure bleed" is not a skill.

Instead of pedantic write-ups, how about you show us? Link your profile or post a picture of your rarest achievements.

Going by how you play PoE: Your account is over a decade old. You are a Standard-only player who only plays 4 out of 7 classes, you have zero lvl 100s, you never killed Uber Atziri, you never played Minions, you never got at least 3 Voidstones, but please do tell how to properly build a character.

And I'm not quoting these to antagonize you, I'm just putting the cards on the table. My account is new, I only played Affliction and quit Necro after a week, but I've been playing PoE since April 2013 (technically).

I'm not trying to antagonize you either, but are you going to ignore everything else in my whole post? Where I literally tell him like, 5 ways to fix his problems with level 20 skeletons being resistant to bleed?
Where he tells me I know Sh** about OA, DA and saying I didn't even finished the campaign(much more pedantic)?

I can kill any uber anytime I want in PoE. I just need to open up the internet and follow a "100% chance of success" build guide. But guess what? I actually PLAY PoE because I never do that.

In fact I never understood this in this community...
Do you guys know that in a game that literally has the work done for you on the internet in the form of broken builds, the achievement of killing an Uber Boss means next to nothing? Unless you are the build creator, ofc.
Be honest, you know it's not much of a proof of accomplishment...

I already took time post extensive arguments here in response to PoitelMarto, if they are invalid you are welcome to correct me, if you make sense I will agree with you.

My account is 10 years old. So? I play D2, Titan Quest, The Witcher 3, Skyrim, Metro, Borderlands 1, 2 and 3, HUNT, Deep Rock Gallatic, AoE2, AoE1, Killing Floor 2, Last Epoch and several other indie games like rogue legacy.

I also like to make alt characters a lot so I get tired and reroll all the time. Not everyone plays the game the same way, so... What's your point? Those 10 years are more likely 1 year. And things change a lot so if I stay 3 years away from PoE there's a lot of time spent re-learning.

I won't derail this thread any further with links and images related to GD(might even be prohibited by the rules).

In fact I don't even know what your point is, exactly. Maybe If you can clarify your point more we can come to a better understanding.

"

hasatt0 wrote:

Games can be as complicated and complex as they want to be, that's not a problem.

However, there has to be accurate feedback for player input.

In many instances, PoE does not provide you with enough information to know what's going on.

Take floating damage numbers for instance, they simply do not exist in PoE. If it were a low-budget pixel game, sure no need for numbers but I think it is one of the most important feedback mechanisms that has to be there for a modern RPG. For people who don't like it? Add an option to turn these off.

Even for people who plan their builds on PoB, there is simply no way of knowing how certain interactions will go live in-game. Unfortunately, testing these things in-game is very tedious and time-consuming.

+1

also hope sometimes GGG added pob to core game... pls GGG

"

AllMasterKing wrote:

I wanted to share my story here, thanks for reading it.

It has been about 2 years from now on since I have deleted my Path of Building out of curiosity. It all stared as a fun project to see how the game would feel like without it. Before that I was a PoB user like anyone else, since we all are being told that a third party program is required to play the game. But it never really made sense to me. In every other game we play we login -> play the tutorial -> have fun. So I was wondering why do we need multiple hours of "making builds" before we even start playing? Why would be PoE different then other game? 2 years later now, I know the answer. No, it is not different from other games. More than that, if you would really pay attention to the campaign, you would find a more efficient ways that are much easier to understand than PoB. I will leave that as an empty statement, because that would require me to write entire guide here and that is not what I wanted to talk about. Maybe next time. Guys, Path of Building is the worse nightmare for PoE. It really is. And you will not understand that there is a problem until you remove it from your PC and take the PoE campaign seriously.

First there is a day and night difference in fun experience and knowledge depending if you learn from PoB or the campaign. I can't explain it better you need to try it yourself and give it at least a months to notice it. But the fact is I have played maybe around 15k hours PoE before deleting PoB. And in the past 2 years I have learned so much more about the game like never before. That I can tell you.

So why did I learn more about the game when I did not use PoB? What makes the difference? I was looking for answers for my experience. And there is a principle of the human brain. Human brain is an efficient organ, when given external memory (PoB), it stops paying attention (PoE campaign). This made so much sense to me. Because that is exactly what I have experienced. Just think about it. If you solved the game before you login, why would you need to pay attention to anything in PoE campaign tutorial. And as you can imagine that can not be a good thing, if players do not learn the game based on the games tutorial and learn it from a third party tool. It makes absolute no sense. This does not happen in any other game.

Another downside of pushing PoB onto new players in every guide is that PoB increases the entry barrier to the game. How many people are out there wanting to try PoE, but because they have been told you need to learn a third part tool for 1000 hours before you can make a your own build? The fact is the same people who push PoB onto new players, are also the same people who tell them to not to pay any attention to the PoE campaign. I am wondering what is the estimate financial loss for GGG because, content creators who don't know any better are pushing PoB onto new players and as usual others are following them. Never questioning.

There is more to it, but this two are the main ones. The PoE community needs a wide discussion about the negative consequences of PoB and learning the game the right way from campaign. There is a lot to discover. The PoE campaign hides it secrets well. As it should. Path of Exile was designed to be played forever. I have solved the big puzzle. So I want everyone else to know, that there is a lot more to PoE then you can imagine and the first step to find it all out is to remove PoB from your computer.

uhh no?

if you played wow and told people that you don't sim your character to min-max your gear, you'd only be made fun of

why do people need sims in wow? because it's impossible to test every condition and determine the most optimal output on your own

this is the situation in every game where it's possible, and in the case of path of exile, POB is mandatory, because 99% of the information that's available in POB isn't available in the game

"

There's nothing to derail; in fact, this is quite on topic. After all, it's about the negative consequences of third-party tools.

Ok. So, let me get this straight: Your response basically was that you know better how to build a character, you typed out multiple paragraphs, but you actually don't have the experience to talk down on others as if you do.

You said that GD offers more diversity and build variety, yet none of what you said so far proved anything but the opposite. Not only do you have zero understanding of the endgame in both games, you haven't even dabbled in it.

Can you point me to where did I say "I know better"? I said that if he has a problem with skeletons at LVL 20 maybe he doesn't know how to build correctly and overcome some temporary obstacles while levelling.
And then I provided several solutions. That is called: Proving a point.

Then he basically said I didn't even beat Normal difficulty(LOL)
And then I said I can make almost any skill/class work and beat most content, he just needs to PM me and well discuss some buildcrafting.

Yes I typed multiple paragraphs but you still ignore any of them and just repeat the "you have no experience". If my arguments are wrong then feel free to prove them wrong. Worst case scenario, I'll learn a thing or two with your experience.

And no one has right to talk down on others even if they have experience. You also ignored that the other guy "talked down" on me first.(even though he sees LVL 2o skeletons as a wall... smh)
Easy to come up with your conclusions while ignoring 60% of the conversation.

"

You shouldn't go around talking like you know what a game is like when you haven't even explored like half of its content. I finished GD multiple times with dozens and dozens of different builds, and killed every single thing except for a handful of Uber Uber bosses. I quit because I realized every build essentially plays the same in endgame: Get tons of OA/DA and RR, massively overcap your resists, have CC, circuit breakers and movement skills. Every. Single. Build.

Again, man. You only come up with argument of "authority" which isn't good. There are kids that can program better than adults with PHD. Titles and "I beat ultimate 10x" only go so far.
What matters is your argument.

Ok, now we get to a point that you misundertood me and are actually agreeing with me... I said the same thing thing you are saying now:

All you need to make any build idea work is base investments into OA/DA, HP Resistances(which are in 90% of pieces of equipment) and then scale DMG with %Inc, %Resist Debuff, Conversion(optional), atk/cast speed(optional).
Circuit breakers are good but not mandatory.

We are actually agreeing here. By filling the stat "quota" above(PoE has stat quota too btw) you can build any archetype you want:

Barbarians, Archers, Gadgedt Caster(mines, grenades), Mages, Druids, Assassins, Mix of Assassin+Spells, Battlemages that deal damage of ANY kind, Healers, Buffers, Paladins, Melee + Summons, Archer + Summons, Arcane Archers of almost any damage type, Tanks, Dual pistols build that can deal any damage type. The list goes on and on.

And they all work. Every single one.

Even then, you don't necessarily need CC(stun,Freeze,etc) or Circuit Breakers. My Ritualist's "CC" are my 2 Blightfiends + Giant Skeleton that hold aggro for me and my "Circuit Breaker" is my Wendigo Totem that heals all 4 of us for an insane ammount, while dealing damage and buffing me. Wouldn't trade this kind of reliability for a circuit breaker that activates every 20-30 seconds.

Most Circuit Breakers are overrated, they have like 15-40s cooldowns.
If you are getting blown up to the point of having to activate it, then you're better off getting healing on lower CDs instead.
It will keep you alive more consistently. Also, if you take a hit that kills you it won't activate.

For instance, a lot of people get the Ghoul CB. Depending on the build I prefer to spend my points to get more Health + DA, especially from the Menhir and Targo constellations. 40 DA + 6% DA all in one node? Yes please :)

Targo has a node that gives 300 HP + 35 DA, nodes leading to it give 6% extra HP each + 20 DA. No need to complete these constellations also, you can just grab these nodes and they will be very good.
I prefer to have these all the time active over some conditional CB.
You can do this and your build won't become bricked for it. Aka "a choice"
Ofc, it all depends on your masteries/attribute allocations.

That said, they are good if you can get one for cheap or can't get any source of healing.

"

"It's fake diversity."

Not exactly...

- You can choose to have how many active skills you can handle in your piano.
- You can choose to play a heavy Auto Attack build.
- You can play pure Retaliation builds.
- You can play focusing on a single dmg type or double/triple dmg types(more if you choose only magical damage)
- "Proc" attack builds using only items and devotions that proc some effect on attack
- Almost any hybrid build you want
- Mages that can deal all 7 magic damage types effectively by pumping spirit
- You can choose to invest in any main attribute you want, as long as it buffs your core dmg types you can make up for it in devotions/Gear
- "CWDT" like builds(Retal + "% Chance when hit" procs) plenty of items have "when hit" procs.
- Builds that invest in %Cooldown Reduction to use strong Nuke skills and Circuit Breakers really often.
- Builds based on conversion. I can use my acid char to cast Devastation because I found an items that converts it to acid damage. Not only that but I found another item that reduces the spread of the meteors so it works like a choke for a shotgun. Reeeally good.
- Builds that only use base stats and auras from masteries but actives from items ONLY.
- Builds with heavy healing/sustain
- Builds that deal small damage from multiple small sources. I like to call them "death by 1000 cuts" builds
- Classless Builds

Some are harder to build but all of them are viable. Even Celestials can be beaten if you swap a few gear pieces, drink some tonics... apply the right augments.

Plus GD has around 16 damage types(including DOTs, ofc) also adds to the thematic diversity.

"

And it's tools like Path of Building, GrimTools and whatnot that get you to think and discover, plan and execute crazy stuff in the first place. Last Epoch also has such tools and they are good to have.

Like, I have an idea, but instead of wasting my time leveling a character straight away, I make what is basically a skeleton, then review and tweak it several times, test certain interactions in-game BEFORE I even think about creating that character.

And here's a prime example of why such tools are amazing to have:

I made a Scorching Ray Totems character, initially planned around Scion Elementalist with additional Exposure. I already had a Scion in Standard, so I tweaked a few things and tested it. Turns out, there's a bug that's existed for over a year that still hasn't been fixed, where the additional Exposure in this very specific case - meaning Scorching Ray ON TOTEMS - does NOT work, like, at all. Only the Scorching Ray effect works, any additional Exposure Effect does literally nothing.

You know what I did? I opened PoB, switched to Hierophant, tweaked a few things, and then I played that character on league start.

Nobody likes excessive trial and error, writing down every single thing in a notebook or something. That's how we did things two decades ago.

Never disagreed on that. I prefer to have the tools than not have them.
My whole point is only that GD is much more intuitive because it is less complex and easier so it is only logical that is will be easier to build whatever char you want to roleplay.

PoE is much more chaotic, complex and gimmicky, that's one of its strenghts if you prefer that. But it also has too much emphasis on specialization and that restricts certain archetypes. GGG tried to fix that in one way or another, but didn't quite work.

PoE2 seems have some mechanics to make this less of a problem.

"

auspexa wrote:

why do people need sims in wow? because it's impossible to test every condition and determine the most optimal output on your own

Nah people need sims in WoW for the exact same reason PoB is required here, it eventually became the balance standard for content.

I realise that sounds like the same argument "oh I need X power" but you only need X power because they eventually developed the content with X power in mind.

"

The fact that you actually typed this out in all seriousness speaks volumes. Yes, circuit breakers don't prevent one-shots. That's not what they are used for. You build the rest of your character to avoid one-shots. Circuit breakers are there to prevent you from dying too fast, and it tells you that now you should probably kite. Every HC build uses one. I'm curious to know how many deaths you have accumulated. Must be plenty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTOk07ubO-M

Baseless assumptions won't help you make a point.

Here is my meme melee 94 Ritualist build in Ultimate difficulty.

See the description to confirm that the video is mine.

Everyone says It's literally impossible for a melee build that uses pets that aren't based on player stats to survive on Ultimate difficulty.

Both my pets are based on Pet damage bonuses.

Everyone says circuit breakers are mandatory to beat Ultimate. Maybe for Celestials or HC... but to beat Ultimate and all of it's Rogue Dungeons + bosses like Sentinel? Nope.

I use 0 Circuit Breakers, you can see in the video: My health didn't even flinch.

- While doing a Chaos Monster Totem on Ultimate difficulty which is considered harder than normal content. Like league content is harder than normal content is in PoE

- While playing a meme build everyone says wouldn't beat Ultimate difficulty

- While not investing everything into physique

- While using 0 CB

- My chaos res wasn't even capped

So, as long as you don't want to beat all Celestials it is completely possible to play like you want(I wanted Healing and Pets instead of CB and CC).

You say I know ZERO. That means I would never beat Ultimate, let alone kill totem monsters on ultimate without dying at least once.

I can beat any rogue dungeon and anything in the game that isn't a Celestial with the build.

But according to your own words I have ZERO experience and probably didn't even got past the first half of the game.

I have 21 deaths because I was theorycrafting on the go without tools and I was trying to beat one of the Celestials yesterday without optimizing for it. Just to see how it would go.

21 deaths playing carelessly on a self-made, off-meta build that "Would never beat Ultimate"? That's a viable build according to a lot of people.
Unless you consider a viable build somtehing that would beat Callagdra while eating a sandwich

This build can beat all 3 difficulties + all Rogue Dungeons and even 1 or 2 of the weakest Celestials on HC if I decide to take it seriously and adapt to the fights. If someone can beat HC classless then this build has a much better chance at it.

So... Getting tired of all of these baseless arguments like: "Ur a noob" and "know zero" and "Didn't even beat first diffculty" and "probably died 200 times"
And then you wonder why the GD dev wasn't exactly your best friend XD

I just played the game. no add ons. started account this july but I think I played the game before without any addons like 6 years ago.

it's not difficult to just play your character and beat the campaign. Worst part of my experience is my computer's slow CPU and Drive.

game is good. I just used Heavy Strike, Leap, and Sweep with support gems. Simple.

I would be grinding maps more if my computer was better

.

"

NationalSecurity wrote:

Baumi may you please make your characters in your profile public? I would like to see them.

Thank you.

Interesting

You asking because his account is brand new though somehow has build guides and probably many mirrors worth of gear? Wondering why he would choose to hide new characters on a new account?