Stuff I like about D4 and how it made me realize im not as "hardcore" as i was after all

DIV because it uses roman numerals in the title and I feel it helps differentiate it from D3, which was a very...very different game on pretty much every level. Godawful writing, garish visuals, a world I cared absolutely nothing about, and power too tightly connected to the green arrow good red arrow bad approach.

It also had possibly the dumbest ranged class design I have ever seen: dual wield crossbows. Fair enough if magic bolts but in that case, why not just wands?

It was a classic example of trying to transpose a modern cool concept (dual pistols a la John Woo) into a fantasy setting with zero consideration for logic.

Metzen's fingerprints were all over D3 and god did it show.

DIV is made by D2 vets who absolutely wanted to course correct D3. Can't say if they succeeded or not but for me it does rectify most of what D3 got wrong and, with stuff like The Pit, adapt what it got right.

But it will never appeal to avowed Exiles. It shouldn't. Which is why their criticism is at best tangential and typically overblown and myopic. Just because their favourite ARPG fairly clearly wanted to carry on the legacy of an existing one doesn't mean the others have to. They can do their own thing -- the genre is flexible enough for that. Which is why we can have a good 40k arpg, a good ancient history arpg, a good (ish) time traveling one, and in DIV, a good gothic horror ARPG rooted in a world that was frankly doomed from the start. The constant iteration of Lilith as the Mother of Sanctuary and the Daughter of Hatred is proof that the writers definitely wanted that to be the central conceit. It is amazing to me how much Diablo lore DIV doesn't have or need. Shows just how much of it was MMO-level lore bloat.

Anyway I enjoy it. Don't really care if that means its a good game or not. Ive certainly fallen in love with worse with no regrets.

"

Foreverhappychan wrote:

DIV because it uses roman numerals in the title and I feel it helps differentiate it from D3, which was a very...very different game on pretty much every level. Godawful writing, garish visuals, a world I cared absolutely nothing about, and power too tightly connected to the green arrow good red arrow bad approach.

d4 is reskinned d3, recent season shows it clearly. They copy-paste same solutions they used in d3, like greater rifts.

You have said that already. In fact you are just repeating things you have said elsewhere.

If you aren't going to engage in good faith and an open mind, please don't quote me.

Thank you. Goodbye.

"

Foreverhappychan wrote:

You have said that already. In fact you are just repeating things you have said elsewhere.

If you aren't going to engage in good faith and an open mind, please don't quote me.

Thank you. Goodbye.

At this point I'm fairly sure most people praising d4 never really engaged in endgame, maybe played 1-2h. Also, repeating a fact - pit is reskinned greater rift from d3.

Whether you call it D4 or DIV doesn't change anything about all the negatives with the game. It's a snow job, and it certainly won't make people forget about D3.

Okay, for the FF7 topic I have gone and opened up my laptop because I feel it deserved a bit more than a thumbed reply (yep, I do all my posts on phone these days, lol).

Two things to remember with FF7: 1) It's Japanese, and 2) it's from the 90s.

The first is important because as far as narrative themes go, Japan is always a little bit behind the West (usually in a charming way). Even now. And the second is a reminder that FF7 came before The Matrix, before the second Vampire Hunter D movie, before Sword Art Online, before any of its many imitators, so an edgy swordboi with missing memories and a black-cloaked adversary with a fuckoff long katana (daikatana/nodachi/whatever) was 100% new compared to what came before it, at least in terms of the surface details. Amnesia and a general sense of 'not being who you think you are' has been a theme of FF from the beginning, but only VII connected it with a more urban, techy setting. Wedged between Tina Branford the magitek esper of VI and Squall Leonhart the enhanced child soldier of VIII, Cloud serves as an interesting precursor to me. But his actual story and setup? Sure, it's slow but it does come together -- and I think the pacing is messed up just because it is still a game. It still needs those periods of leveling up, side quests, world-building. All that. I believe Rebirth Remake took it WAY too far and really showed just how little meat there was on the bones of the Midgar part of the story. It wasn't bad by any means but it didn't do much other than try to multiverse the whole thing which I found incredibly unsatisfying.

So while it's tempting to look back at FF7 and call it derivative or slow-paced or insubstantial, it's important to remember when it was made and why. For whom even. I remember playing it in Japanese on my then fairly new Playstation 1 and being blown away constantly.

__

As for PoE, I actually really like the story precisely because there isn't one. The conceit is you are a nobody exiled for a crime to a new frontier with nothing to use but your wits and your odd ability to equip virtue gems. The latter is never really explained but eh, whatever. The rest of the so-called story? It's other people's stories; you just happen to encounter them and act upon them in some fairly shallow way. The story of PoE is in the gameplay. The strengthening of your character is the only arc they get. There is no real moral to PoE beyond a sort of raw Darwinism. This suits Wræclast perfectly.

In contrast, there is clear character arc in DIV and it suits Estuar just as well. You start alone, desperate and troubled, but end up at a point where when Neyrelle asks you 'does it get any better?', your natural reply is not one of solitary power gain or introspection but an acknowledgment that with the right allies it does. That is 100% the core theme of Diablo IV: not 'stronger together' but 'healthier together'. Lorath was purposeless until you came along and showed him how much he was squandering his life with his drunken moping. Donan was still traumatised by the loss of his allies in the days of ash, and later by their succumbing to Lilith's temptations. Prava always has her church. Vigo, in contrast, is alone when Lilith coerces him into a moment of terrible weakness. The notion is those who have isolated themselves are most susceptible to her power.

I think that's why so many of the memorable side quests in DIV revolve around the need for kinship, for human intimacy. Anything from the early 'dagger' quest to By Three They Come or the Backwater quest chain. Or the Sign of the Goose. They're all about what happens when people lose that, and so seek something like it elsewhere.

I feel you just can't have this sort of conversation about PoE. Which is, again, fine: it never really showed much interest in nuanced storytelling because GGG know that's not what their players are after. Not from an ARPG, at any rate.

Maybe PoE2 will buck this trend but I am not holding my breath. As I said when they announced a new 7 act campaign as the big attraction of what was then PoE 1.5 -- seems an awful lot of resources for a portion of the game the existing playerbase will be done with in a handful of hours.


Edit: had to google 'snow job'. I obviously disagree and feel no need to elaborate why (I put my argumentation into everything I say), but I appreciate being taught a new North American slang term. Neat. :)

Edit 2: clearly my laptop typing skills need work. Fixing typos on my phone...

"

Foreverhappychan wrote:

Okay, for the FF7 topic I have gone and opened up my laptop because I feel it deserved a bit more than a thumbed reply (yep, I do all my posts on phone these days, lol).

Two things to remember with FF7: 1) It's Japanese, and 2) it's from the 90s.

The first is important because as far as narrative themes go, Japan is always a little bit behind the West (usually in a charming way). Even now. And the second is a reminder that FF7 came before The Matrix, before the second Vampire Hunter D movie, before Sword Art Online, before any of its many imitators, so an edgy swordboi with missing memories and a black-cloaked adversary with a fuckoff long katana (daikatana/nodachi/whatever) was 100% new compared to what came before it, at least in terms of the surface details. Amnesia and a general sense of 'not being who you think you are' has been a theme of FF from the beginning, but only VII connected it with a more urban, techy setting. Wedged between Tina Branford the magitek esper of VI and Squall Leonhart the enhanced child soldier of VIII, Cloud serves as an interesting precursor to me. But his actual story and setup? Sure, it's slow but it does come together -- and I think the pacing is messed up just because it is still a game. It still needs those periods of leveling up, side quests, world-building. All that. I believe Rebirth took it WAY too far and really showed just how little meat there was on the bones of the Midgar part of the story. It wasn't bad by any means but it didn't do much other than try to multiverse the whole thing which I found incredibly unsatisfying.

So while it's tempting to look back at FF7 and call it derivative or slow-paced or insubstantial, it's important to remember when it was made and why. For whom even. I remember playing it in Japanese on my then fairly new Playstation 1 and being blown away constantly.

__

As for PoE, I actually really like the story precisely because there isn't one. The conceit is you are a nobody exiles for a crime to a new frontier with nothing to use but your wits and your odd ability to equip virtue gems. The latter is never really explained but eh, whatever. The rest of the so-called story? It's other people's stories; you just happen to encounter them and act upon them in some fairly shallow way. The story of PoE is in the gameplay. The strengthening of your character is the only arc they get. There is no real moral to PoE beyond a sort of raw Darwinism. This suits Wræclast perfectly.

In contrast, there is clear character arc in DIV and it suits Estuar just as well. You start alone, desperate and troubled, but end up at a point where when Neyrelle asks you 'does it get any better?', your natural reply is not one of solitary power gain or introspection but an acknowledgment that with the right allies it does. That is 100% the core theme of Diablo IV: not 'stronger together' but 'healthier together'. Lorath was purposeless until you came along and showed him how much he was squandering his life with his drunken moping. Donan was still traumatised by the loss of his allies in the days of ash, and later by their succumbing to Lilith's temptations. Prava always has her church. Vigo, in contrast, is alone when Lilith coerces him into a moment of terrible weakness. The notion is those who have isolated themselves are most susceptible to her power.

I think that's why so many of the memorable side quests in DIV revolve around the need for kinship, for human intimacy. Anything from the early 'dagger' quest to By Three They Come or the Backwater quest chain. Or the Sign of the Goose. They're all about what happens when people lose that, and so seek something like it elsewhere.

I feel you just can't have this sort of conversation about PoE. Which is, again, fine: it never really showed much interest in nuanced storytelling because GGG know that's not what their players are after. Not from an ARPG, at any rate.

Maybe PoE2 will buck this trend but I am not holding my breath. As I said when they announced a new 7 act campaign as the big attraction of what was then PoE 1.5 -- seems an awful lot of resources for a portion of the game the existing playerbase will be done with in a handful of hours.


Edit: had to google 'snow job'. I obviously disagree and feel no need to elaborate why (I put my argumentation into everything I say), but I appreciate being taught a new North American slang term. Neat. :)

i fully understand what you meant by "how FF" came to be. i personally was an FF fanboi back in the day and any FF was guaranteed to be a hit coz "Square is always epic".

especially with FF7 being the very first FF in 3 fuckin D!!! my young mind was blown to bits.

unfortunately my parents refused to get me a ps1. it was not until i was much older did i finally "remember" that FF7 exists and tried playing it. the hype had died down and i've played many other games. in terms of urgency, Mass Effect 1 set the bar so damn high up for me. but yeah its not completely fair to measure an old game directly to newer games without remembering how the time it was conceived.

as for your take on POE, what i agree 100% is yeah WE DONT CARE for POE's story. TBH i did myself a great disservice by just skipping most of d4's dialogues on my first playthru.

but damn. i would NEVER skip d4's cutscenes. unless of course i've seen it a dozen times.

as for the snowjob and d4 bad comments. we simply cant change people's opinions. at this point i m not too sure if we can call them haters outright.

to me things can be obviously bad, while somethings can be things you dont like.

i feel that some people tend to forget that sometimes things that they dont like dont immediately translate to "objectively bad".

i too am unapologetically enjoying d4. i would admit there are things that are still bad. but the changes theyve made, i can no longer get on board the d4 bad train. its disrespectful to the devs for their efforts and humility and its simply an inaccurate take.

"

ArtCrusade wrote:

Whether you call it D4 or DIV doesn't change anything about all the negatives with the game. It's a snow job, and it certainly won't make people forget about D3.

One of the worst d4 quest is where they introduce corrupted soldier that was taking bribes and didn't really give a shit at his job, 5min later game is telling you how much that guy was a hero and try to force you to pity him. Why would players give a shit about some poorly written npc? They don't so game try to force feed you. I feel like even d3 had a better story than d4.
Most of the story feels like escort quests from wow, if it could be compared.
Reading some comments tho feels like reading d4 marketing materials.

"

Nomancs wrote:

"

ArtCrusade wrote:

Whether you call it D4 or DIV doesn't change anything about all the negatives with the game. It's a snow job, and it certainly won't make people forget about D3.

One of the worst d4 quest is where they introduce corrupted soldier that was taking bribes and didn't really give a shit at his job, 5min later game is telling you how much that guy was a hero and try to force you to pity him. Why would players give a shit about some poorly written npc? They don't so game try to force feed you. I feel like even d3 had a better story than d4.
Most of the story feels like escort quests from wow, if it could be compared.

in poe you get to find seashells to open up a hidden submerged pathway because reasons.

then nessa becomes a mermaid because reasons.

piety has an interest with you because reasons (duelist has a nice ass).

i think the worst d4 subquest is where blizz forces you to use emoticons omfg.

lols.

yeah d4 has some terrible quests subquests. but coming back to play and enjoy d4, whatever shitty thing d4 has for an excuse of a quest/subquest is still miles above POE.

heck d4 even has a quest where u lead a camel to its owner. its dumb as fuck but i cant help but appreciate the fact the devs took time and effort to code and animate this quest into existence. for sure some of the quests are paper thin but some come with in game animations and even unique npcs. theres a quest where you escort an npc to safety only for him to succumb to something that turns him into a demon.

all this is filler content but damn theres a lot of effort put into em.

Whataboutism, exsea. You can call D4 story bland while agreeing that using seashells to do magicks is ridiculous.