we have a winner

Lol

"

Nomancs wrote:

edit2: you kinly ignored my question about trade system in D4 and tried to change the topic to how loot is exciting for you (sounds like advertisement tho) so I will ask again - how is trade system organised in D4?

The simple answer is it's also just bad like the entire game.
I mean new season is already that amazing that it didn't took them long to get out of the lurking mode again hoho

"

DarthSki44 wrote:

Anyways back to lurking. Have a nice weekend.

Feel like enjoying an unpopular game would get you stabbed by the people here sometimes lol.

"

kyobusa wrote:

Feel like enjoying an unpopular game would get you stabbed by the people here sometimes lol.

Almost. Remove the 'un' and I think you're closer to how 'people here' see their tastes.

"

Foreverhappychan wrote:

"

kyobusa wrote:

Feel like enjoying an unpopular game would get you stabbed by the people here sometimes lol.

Almost. Remove the 'un' and I think you're closer to how 'people here' see their tastes.

Weirdest thing is they claim that they don’t play PoE yet come to PoE forum to do that - it does indeed show their tastes.

"

Nomancs wrote:

"

Foreverhappychan wrote:

"

kyobusa wrote:

Feel like enjoying an unpopular game would get you stabbed by the people here sometimes lol.

Almost. Remove the 'un' and I think you're closer to how 'people here' see their tastes.

Weirdest thing is they claim that they don’t play PoE yet come to PoE forum to do that - it does indeed show their tastes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gL4ydzFVc2w

HONK
HONK

"

Nomancs wrote:

"

Foreverhappychan wrote:

"

kyobusa wrote:

Feel like enjoying an unpopular game would get you stabbed by the people here sometimes lol.

Almost. Remove the 'un' and I think you're closer to how 'people here' see their tastes.

Weirdest thing is they claim that they don’t play PoE yet come to PoE forum to do that - it does indeed show their tastes.

I doubt you'd find a single regular of the PoE forum (specifically GD and OT, probably the two most useless boards as far as GGG are concerned) who claims with a straight face that playing PoE is a co-requisite to enjoy whatever games they play here.

It's pretty easy to tell who 'still' plays PoE and who doesn't assuming they're not on alts -- challenge numbers, character lists [if profile isn't hidden], and basic attitude towards the game if not. It'd be impossible to have my attitude towards the game, for example, if I'd played it in the past...shit I dunno how long it's been...3 or 4 years now maybe. I think I gave Ruthless a shot when it first landed but that lasted a day or two. That was 2022 apparently. Hardly enough to get a gauge of where the game was then or is now.

But it seems to me the core issues of the game, the long-running fundamentals, haven't changed enough to invalidate even a stale view of the game. Could be wrong. So far no one's really said as much.

___

I can't wait to be done with my weekend tasks so I can kick the GF off the telly (hey, it's a switch, it's made for handheld right!?) and get back to DIV. :)

"

Foreverhappychan wrote:

"

Nomancs wrote:

Weirdest thing is they claim that they don’t play PoE yet come to PoE forum to do that - it does indeed show their tastes.

I doubt you'd find a single regular of the PoE forum (specifically GD and OT, probably the two most useless boards as far as GGG are concerned) who claims with a straight face that playing PoE is a co-requisite to enjoy whatever games they play here.

It's pretty easy to tell who 'still' plays PoE and who doesn't assuming they're not on alts -- challenge numbers, character lists [if profile isn't hidden], and basic attitude towards the game if not. It'd be impossible to have my attitude towards the game, for example, if I'd played it in the past...shit I dunno how long it's been...3 or 4 years now maybe. I think I gave Ruthless a shot when it first landed but that lasted a day or two. That was 2022 apparently. Hardly enough to get a gauge of where the game was then or is now.

But it seems to me the core issues of the game, the long-running fundamentals, haven't changed enough to invalidate even a stale view of the game. Could be wrong. So far no one's really said as much.

___

I can't wait to be done with my weekend tasks so I can kick the GF off the telly (hey, it's a switch, it's made for handheld right!?) and get back to DIV. :)

Thats really fascinating, I still don't get why with all the shit on the screen d4 didn't add loot filter, after short fight in helltide whole screen is covered in crap that is not worth picking up on day one.

About people coming to PoE forum and claiming they don't play the game - sure, they can do whatever they want with their free time, if complaining about the game they don't play it their jam - let it be so, it does tho, as you wrote it shows "their tastes". I'm not here to tell them what to do, but I can also comment on whatever I wish - and I'm doing so (and I think majority of countries have it in their legal system, but since this forum is private other rules are applied, so we don't have to confuse these two, it is just a small detour for thoughts because, as you probably noticed, discussion give specific vibes encouraging such act). Game may or may not changed during past years, depends who is the judge, some people would say it changed from hotfix to hotfix, other would see changes from league to league, and for some, life don't change in general and pen is still a pen, 2000 pc or 2024 pc is still a pc, book, be it "Colour of Magic" or "50 shades of grey" is still a book, same thing. Anything can be a fair statement from authors perspective.





I tried d4 and I don't know if they hired a student to write the story but it is so bad I consider it worse than Starfield (and I didn't know it was possible). It is so inconsistent, so cliche I'm surprised it was accepted. But on the other hand, d4 try to be as simple as it can be for a reason.

"

Nomancs wrote:

"

Foreverhappychan wrote:

"

Nomancs wrote:

Weirdest thing is they claim that they don’t play PoE yet come to PoE forum to do that - it does indeed show their tastes.

I doubt you'd find a single regular of the PoE forum (specifically GD and OT, probably the two most useless boards as far as GGG are concerned) who claims with a straight face that playing PoE is a co-requisite to enjoy whatever games they play here.

It's pretty easy to tell who 'still' plays PoE and who doesn't assuming they're not on alts -- challenge numbers, character lists [if profile isn't hidden], and basic attitude towards the game if not. It'd be impossible to have my attitude towards the game, for example, if I'd played it in the past...shit I dunno how long it's been...3 or 4 years now maybe. I think I gave Ruthless a shot when it first landed but that lasted a day or two. That was 2022 apparently. Hardly enough to get a gauge of where the game was then or is now.

But it seems to me the core issues of the game, the long-running fundamentals, haven't changed enough to invalidate even a stale view of the game. Could be wrong. So far no one's really said as much.

___

I can't wait to be done with my weekend tasks so I can kick the GF off the telly (hey, it's a switch, it's made for handheld right!?) and get back to DIV. :)

Thats really fascinating, I still don't get why with all the shit on the screen d4 didn't add loot filter, after short fight in helltide whole screen is covered in crap that is not worth picking up on day one.

...


I tried d4 and I don't know if they hired a student to write the story but it is so bad I consider it worse than Starfield (and I didn't know it was possible). It is so inconsistent, so cliche I'm surprised it was accepted. But on the other hand, d4 try to be as simple as it can be for a reason.

As ever, the proviso that your opinion is just as valid as anyone else's must come first.

But what will then follow is a disagreement, because if all we did was agree there wouldn't be much of value to say.

A clarification and a disagreement, actually.

Helltides are visually messy, it's true. I play with floating damage numbers off, because they're not necessary. Not in PoE (obviously), and not in any other well-made ARPG. If shit dies and you don't, that's enough as far as I'm concerned. Floating damage numbers are a fine QoL but far from necessary.

As for loot filter, I think they made the smarter choice and simply reduced drops/tightened the loot table significantly. A loot filter is a bandaid. A surrender to the idea that you as a dev haven't properly figured out how to make drops meaningful. Other than an occasional blue item and an already-known Temper recipe (I'm still in WT3), I pick up and 'use' everything I find in Helltides -- either as equipment or resource recovery. This may change deeper into the game but I have no issue portaling back to clear inventory mid-Tide. There's always another Tide in an hour at the worst. Usually I'll just get enough Embers to open a chest, check inventory, decide if I can go for another one or go clear inventory. It's pretty simple.

The clutter of Helltides visually for me is entirely in the monster density and those hilariously violent Nydus Canals.

That's clarification/argument 1.

The other regards the writing/story. I should point out that pretty much every review agreed that the story/campaign was quite well done, before making my own argument. I am not a professional reviewer but you might be the type to dismiss all reviews for one reason or another. Regardless of the credentials and experience of said reviewers -- there is always room to argue agenda and bias. If that's your stance, then that's that.

This is a toughie without appealing to authority (I hold a degree in creative arts specialisation creative writing, have worked as a freelance manuscript assessor/doctor, shit like that) so I guess it'd be better to try to appeal to specific aspects of DIV's campaign writing.

Firstly, it managed to do a young female character that I didn't find grating. She didn't quip. She didn't have all the other older, more experienced characters fawning over her. She faced a pretty serious loss early on and had to work through that. Her arc was well done, even I felt the last third was sort of rushed compared to the build up. And the cliffhanger was...pretty typical Diablo fare. Certain traditions regarding good guys getting dominated by Prime Evils have to be maintained I guess.

Secondly, it not one but two good Horadric characters that didn't seem to be Deckard Cain redux. Lorath was a good anti-Deckard, broken and lost where Deckard seemed indefatigably positive. Lorath also gets absolutely the best line in the game when you find him drunk off his arse in Ked Bardu. Donan represents the weaker of the two because unlike Lorath, he allowed himself to have a life and a family. His end was debatably too banal but his trauma is, again, fully worked through as you complete the acts.

Lilith is a good example of a simple but effective antagonist because she kind of has a point from the start (the war between hell and heaven is stupid and maybe the people of Sanctuary do need a middle way out of it), she isn't blitheringly stupid, always seems at least two steps ahead of the good guys, and even when her time comes, you aren't fully convinced she was just plain evil. Moments such as her reaction to finding her son and just how much she cared for him are far more nuanced than anything I've seen in a Blizzard game in a really long time. Where a less well-crafted Blizzard antagonist might give a big speech, she might just twitch her eyes or quirk her lips and say something very practical and straightforward.

In contrast, Inarius is just a blowhard and a dick. He's very much like the angels in that old movie "The Prophecy" with Eric Stoltz and Christopher Walken -- cast out of Heaven, they just want to get back in and see humans as nothing but tools to achieving that. You get a palpable sense that Lilith cares about the people of Sanctuary, whereas Inarius is all me, me, me.

So we already have in those two an inversion of angels=good, demons=bad. And while this has been done elsewhere, it's still fairly new to Diablo. I don't find it a coincidence that so much of the art direction in Diablo IV draws on the old masters, who were so fascinated with the notion of Satan as an anti-hero and hell as a tangible landscape rather than some abstract state of Godless suffering. The visual metaphor of chiaroscuro is perfect for Diablo.



Back to the writing though.

Elias is less sympathetic than Lilith as the secondary antagonist, but we have to accept that being Lorath's apprentice likely made him vulnerable to Lilith's enticements. I found his ultimate fate pretty satisfying.

But easily the most sympathetic character for me was Vigo. He represented the deceptively significant effect of human vices -- he took a small bribe that he downplays at first, even tries to justify, but by the end of act 1 it's clear just what sort of massive impact that small bribe had: it enabled pretty much every other major event going forward. So of course he pays the price for it, and damn if I wasn't reminded of it every time his amulet triggered.

As a bonus, the player character didn't talk much at all. Diablo 3's biggest sin to me was that pretty much everyone talked too much and when they did talk, it came out juvenile and self-important. When the player character in DIV's campaign talks, it's sparse and reserved. This means when they finally do express a hefty opinion, for example how they feel about Elias near the end, it lands much harder.

So while none of this is award-winning stuff, it does take some pretty tired tropes and spin them a little bit.

I struggled through Diablo 3's campaign and never looked back. It was bloviated, grandiose, cartoonish, and puerile -- everything Sanctuary shouldn't be. In contrast, I find the writing in DIV appropriate for the world in which it's set. The tone of DIV is consistent and even. Every bit of writing lends itself to adding to our feeling of what it'd be like to live in a world that is, essentially, a constant battleground between two endless forces.

Not necessarily related to the campaign but still kinda relevant, the side quests, some of which flesh out core characters from the campaign, all landed with me. The 'By Three They Come' quest chain (which links poignantly to the opening movie), the Backwaters quest chain (which builds on the fate of the Scoundrel from D3), and the 'Under the Goose' quest chain (which shows how ordinary people in Estuar deal with grief and their past transgressions) are all really...really good. Well above anything I've seen in any other ARPG.

The culmination of the writing being good comes with one single cut-scene. Isolated, it would be aesthetically impressive but the same can be said of any Blizzard cut scene honestly. It's what they do so well. But as a capstone (lol pun intended) to the campaign's build up, it just works so well. The way Prava faces down the hordes of Hell with a fucking song and has complete faith in her soldiers is 100% appropriate to everything she'd done and said to that point. And behind that, you have this huge but mostly pointless clash overshadowed by what is essentially the resolution to Sanctuary's worst ever break-up. This contrast of epic and intimate in the one cut scene is something no Diablo has done before, at least not very well. And it all hinges on the writing to that point, whether or not the player feels it.



I haven't played Starfield and likely never will so I can't speak to that comparison, but I definitely disagree that DIV's writing is bad or 'something that would be written by a student'. Pretty sure the devs put an unusual amount of effort into the quality of the writing compared prior Diablos, in fact. I can name a LOT of games where I've found the writing jarring, atonal, overdone, too try-hard, cliched, low-effort...all those. I would not count Diablo IV in that number.

But you have your opinion and I'm not here to change it. Only to disagree with it and to explain why I disagree.

I have taken enough time with this away from my own writing, but I won't lie and say I didn't enjoy the distraction. Take care.

"

DarthSki44 wrote:

Just to put a bow on this, I wasn't, and am not, lying. As Mr Chan said, at best we have different versions of viability here.

You quite literally said that a player cannot engage in the trade if they don't buy premium tab which is simply untrue. Either you didn't know that one can actually still list their items even without a premium tab or you are being dishonest, and now you just moving goalposts by saying that what you meant is that it's not viable/convenient. There is a difference between 'you can't wash your clothes by hand' and 'it's inconvenient and less efficient than using a washing machine'.

And an anecdote - my brother played his first two leagues without buying anything and made tens of exalteds (imho pretty impressive for a new players). He just traded his currency for chaos/exalteds via trade website and used a bit of TFT for some bulk sales. So I'll say you can make it work even without tabs if you really want to, but it sure is inconvenient and inefficient.