Instant buyouts confirmed in PoE 2

I'm looking forward to have this in PoE 2. However, it is one of those features that have to be present from the very beginning. They can't just slap it on PoE 1 as is without rebalancing loot entirely. Again, this is a different story if the game has been built from the ground with this in mind.

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Nomancs wrote:

But you just wrote you don’t want to trade or as you describe it „mcdonalds employee simulator”? So you don’t want to trade but will not play without it?

I want to trade with automated buyouts.

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wkernel wrote:

And how did any of this solved (or is related at all to) any trade problems? Please be more specific what trade problems adding torments/more bosses solved.

The argument is "trading without friction makes progression too fast", right? New tiers and new bosses solve it by making the "road" itself longer (rather than slowing down the player artificially). Or even making some gear irrelevant (Maven memory game).

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wkernel wrote:

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Nomancs wrote:

But you just wrote you don’t want to trade or as you describe it „mcdonalds employee simulator”? So you don’t want to trade but will not play without it?

I want to trade with automated buyouts.

You will have it in poe2.

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wkernel wrote:

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Nomancs wrote:

And how did any of this solved (or is related at all to) any trade problems? Please be more specific what trade problems adding torments/more bosses solved.

The argument is "trading without friction makes progression too fast", right? New tiers and new bosses solve it by making the "road" itself longer (rather than slowing down the player artificially). Or even making some gear irrelevant (Maven memory game).

So how do you imagine this, uber uber ubers? In wow it takes them 2 years to make new season. New uber uber ubers droping most the loot ofc as everything before that should be midgame… Any rares below t17 drop t3 mods max? Sounds like a plan for a disaster. Look at the bigger picture, your idea solves nothing but add more problems.

Problem: automated frictionless trade with no barriers whatsoever allows and facilitates ultra-high-volume trading.

Ultra-high-volume trading is actual ass cancer. Buying and selling thousands and thousands and thousands of items, hundreds of times a day, to Wall Street your way into five hundred mirrors three hours after a league starts makes the entire game worse for every single player in it.

It makes the game worse for the ultra-high-volume traders, who simply outbuy all the content and then complain there's no challenge in the game because Grinding Gear cannot keep up with that shit.

It makes the game worse for "normal" players who see maybe five to ten divines a league on a good run, becaUSE the UHV people warp the market into unrecognizable mush and jack the prices of everything in weird ways.

It even makes the game worse for strictly SSF guys that eschew trading altogether, because loot has to account for the fact that UHV traders generate a hundred thousand times more currency than anyone else.

Literally nothing good comes from ultra-high-volume trading. Flippers, TFTers, wholesalers, and all those sorts really, really don't need any bleeding help. For one, they'll continue to use third-party tools like TFT regardless of what the actual game client does. For two, the system should be tuned for the use of ordinary players, not configured specifically and solely for the use of UHV people who make everyone's experience worse more than enough as it is.

Gamers need to ask themselves whether they want a looting game or trading simulator.

Trading for best mirrur tier items is the ultimate worst thing in a 'looting' game due to instant gratification.

Unrestricted trading instantly kills any fun associated with loot hunting. There is a copium mode called SSF for players who want nothing to do with that.

MMOs try to solve this by making end-game items account/char bound. Last Epoch and Diablo4 also use such restrictions. For example, d4 doesn't allow trading of crafted items.

However, PoE has this fundamental philosophy (borrowed from d2) that anything and everything MUST be tradeable. Although, they also break from this when it comes to certain league items.

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hasatt0 wrote:

Gamers need to ask themselves whether they want a looting game or trading simulator.

Trading for best mirrur tier items is the ultimate worst thing in a 'looting' game due to instant gratification.

Unrestricted trading instantly kills any fun associated with loot hunting. There is a copium mode called SSF for players who want nothing to do with that.

MMOs try to solve this by making end-game items account/char bound. Last Epoch and Diablo4 also use such restrictions. For example, d4 doesn't allow trading of crafted items.

However, PoE has this fundamental philosophy (borrowed from d2) that anything and everything MUST be tradeable. Although, they also break from this when it comes to certain league items.

As much as I despise marketeering jackwads, I will say this - not everybody sees Path of Exile as a 'Loot' game. Or at least primarily as a loot game.

Some players see the game as a highly customizable action game and prefer to prioritize trying interesting skills and builds and interactions. "Loot games" make this nigh-impossible as you could play for a thousand straight hours and never once get the single specific item that makes the idea you want to try work.

"Loot game" players love the idea of making a build out of whatever pieces the game hands them and see that as the entire point - whatever you make with your loot is yours. But But what you might call "Experimenters" who favor the game's customization and depth over its randomization see randomized loot as a deeply frustrating hard stop to any real build diversity, since every single build you try to make has to be able to use the same level of loot - that is to say, none at all.

E.g. if you're trying to make an interesting bow build but the game keeps handing you maces, the Loot Game player says "welp, guess it's time to reroll and do something with maces!" The Experimenter says "welp, guess my build is just fucked. I don't have any bleeding interest in maces, so time to go play something else."

Trade is an unpleasant hindrance to Loot Game players. It is a vital necessity to Experimenters. That is, in fact, what SSF leagues are for.

True, but denial of todays gaming reality doesn't make anything more or less relevant.

What's happened, and what is happening, is that GGG outsourced player trading and service selling to an outside 3rd party source and lost control of their own narrative.

The only "friction" left is the outdated game that remains. The serious traders, most services, and best items are almost all handled exclusively outside PoE. The most annoying part of that system is to deal with actual Path of Exile itself lol.

The "Trade Manifesto", and adherence to it, is one of their larger mistakes. For all their innovations, and flexibility, the rigidity of this philosophy simply caused the gaming community to bypass them to a large degree which caused all sorts of unintended consequences (TFT).

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DarthSki44 wrote:

What's happened, and what is happening, is that GGG outsourced player trading and service selling to an outside 3rd party source and lost control of their own narrative.

It is interesting that Blizz apparently find this concept good to a point they implemented it in d4 with even greater extent and moved whole trade to 3rd party, to a point where you can ONLY trade through 3rd party websites or (some even paid access) forums.

Funniest thing is, GGG is designing PoE2 around instant trade possibility while d4 goes into 3rd party only trade.

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Nomancs wrote:

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DarthSki44 wrote:

What's happened, and what is happening, is that GGG outsourced player trading and service selling to an outside 3rd party source and lost control of their own narrative.

It is interesting that Blizz apparently find this concept good to a point they implemented it in d4 with even greater extent and moved whole trade to 3rd party, to a point where you can ONLY trade through 3rd party websites or (some even paid access) forums.

Funniest thing is, GGG is designing PoE2 around instant trade possibility while d4 goes into 3rd party only trade.

The large difference being that D4 trade isn't even remotely essential, or even a core game component.

PoE and GGG on the other hand, have directly balanced their entire drop system and estimated character progression on multiplayer trade. (Even in SSF lol)

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DarthSki44 wrote:

The large difference being that D4 trade isn't even remotely essential, or even a core game component.

PoE and GGG on the other hand, have directly balanced their entire drop system and estimated character progression on multiplayer trade. (Even in SSF lol)

It is essential if you want to minmax for some reason, or to bypass bad rng tempering on 3GA. Trade in PoE for campaign or early maps is also not essential - difference ofc is endgame where d4 don't really have one.