[3.25] CWDT Ward Loop Scion

I recently changed from another older wardloop build that i played around with that showed ~26m dps ( https://pastebin.com/3qSPhB7e ), to your 500ex - 250m dps build.

I am still missing some pieces such as correct quality on gems / not using bottled faith atm because of shit resistances.
But i think ive gotten most things, yet my PoB shows ~8m dps.
Im not sure how i can even get it to show correct numbers to even match your PoB.
It makes it really hard to know whats actually correct. 8m dps feels really low.

Also i wonder about using to dust 20,20,18 + less duration gem vs 20,20,19 without less duration gem. Is there a difference? I tried testing and checking in game but it was hard to notice if there was a difference in skele summoning speed?

Would really appreciate some help on this.
Thanks!

My PoB (Standard league): https://pastebin.com/12ENd79d
Last edited by Mayonnaisu#0861 on Dec 27, 2022, 7:10:28 PM
tell me why my trigger only starts when I change weapons twice? Not the first time.
Level 84 LL MoM Crit Ice Spear Ascendant https://pobb.in/GuUDIbrVuFhu
it's something i don't understand:

i have with potion on 1158 ward and the damn forbidden rite is 1213 dmg...I really don't understand how now with more wards per character I still can't cover that level lvl 1.
I can only change the belt in the future...why do I have so little ward?

https://pastebin.com/ZGPfymwH
"
BeneTleilax wrote:
it's something i don't understand:

i have with potion on 1158 ward and the damn forbidden rite is 1213 dmg...I really don't understand how now with more wards per character I still can't cover that level lvl 1.
I can only change the belt in the future...why do I have so little ward?

https://pastebin.com/ZGPfymwH


1158 is a decent number - after the nerf, you cant get much more. With reasonable gear (T1 prefixes on ward gear) you will get around 1250, going to 1300ish requires divined T1 prefixes.
You can get more ward by using anorher iron flask rolled with effect / inc ward, with that and perfect gear you can get close to 1600.
How do you resolve the "Half Loop, Half DPS" problem shown in the Loop Speed section? I'm currently stuck with this and trying to find a way around it

Stats:
Ward with flask - 1204
ES - 132
Life - 3110
Chaos Res - -22%

Flask charges gained - 85%
Flask charges used - -10% (10% fewer used)
Flask duration mod - 86%

Olroths - 43% charges used - 20% qual

Loop functions properly, just running into the exact scenario shown in the GIF in the Loop Speed section
Last edited by Terceprime#1352 on Dec 28, 2022, 9:42:28 AM
The loop is online with 27% cdr, ty for advice everybody!
So, finally got my hand on a NTR

Which I experimented on with Creeping Frost against the invincible Maker of Mires in Hallowed Ground (this guy hits like a truck, 2167 Ward, and I had to up my life to 3079 Life as well as equip a Progenesis Flask to stop dying from some of his punches under Sigil of Power and MoM).

Spoiler
So I made my test by disabling my skellies and using GMP and Slower Projectiles support to see what's what.
Some weird stuff going on, I am telling you.

First off, a reminder that CP, like most projectile spell, doesn't fire sequentially, meaning even with 10 extra projectiles, only one will damage the boss. But unlike most projectile, CP explodes on contact with the ground so we can have every extra projectile deal AoE damage by having them explode at the boss's feet.

I've tested many simple things, but considering we're all using sniper mark, that's what I am going to discuss. Split was also the main reason I was so interested in Nimis Topaz Ring because it means one CP will split into 4, then come back for 4 AoE on target and then we have stuff like


So first, Nimis equipped, but no Mark.
The expected behavior is :
-No mark -> no split : YES !
-Random direction -> some projectiles will fly away : YES !
-Projectiles flying off -> will return at end of flight : NO !
For some reason, they don't come back (at least, not visibly). However, some creeping areas simply creep into existence without visible projectile as source.
So we have 5 projectiles doing area damage and occasionally, one of them fly off target and never return.

Now, let put the mark on and keep the ring.
The expected behavior is :
-Mark -> a projectile will split : YES !
-Random direction -> some projectiles will fly away : YES !
-Projectiles flying off -> will return at end of flight : YES ! NO !
As without the mark, projectiles that do not originate from a split don't come back. However, split projectiles do come back.
I do not imagine this is intended to work this way but what do I know.

So you might think, the mark still improve stuff, because one projectile turns into 4 and they all AoE the boss on the way back. Except not.
What we have is 4 projectiles flying off target (without the mark it was rare for even one to fly off) and not coming back, and one projectile splitting into 4 and coming back, doing area damage.
So, for some reason, the mark makes every extra projectile avoid the boss except for the one which split.

Might as well not use GMP right ? Except, while I have determined that the split projectile don't AoE on the way out, and that the GMP's extra projectile ignore the marked boss, evidence shows creeping area under the boss the moment the projectiles are created.
So, at least one projectile hit the ground.

I decided to remove GMP and use Divergent CP which fire an extra projectile.
The expected behavior based on previous tests is :
-One projectile splits into four, they all come back and AoE : YES !
-One extra projectile either land on the ground and create a creeping area, or ignore the boss, fly off and don't return. With a growing suspicion that extra projectiles flying off might somehow either AoE on the boss the moment they are created, like a frostblink spell, or that the creeping areas behavior is as obscure as teleported fireball with negative projectile speed.
YES ? Absolutely NOT !
What I got is just nonsense :
One projectile do split into four and they all come back.
What happens with the ONE extra projectile you ask ? I don't know. There are FOUR extra projectiles flying off into the wild because, why not. And of course, there is a creeping area under the boss, but I believe now it's created when a split projectile reach End of Flight and leave it's AoE at point of origin rather than EoF. I've been wondering why some EoF are without creeping frost and I assumed they were replaced because of the limit of 10 area but the hell I know.

What if, the one extra projectile from divergent quality is somehow different from a "normal" extra projectile ?
Well a normal CP with a Dying Sun flask reduced to one projectile by the power of Survival Secret behaves the same way as the divergent version.

What about Pierce ? I tested with and without, didn't see a difference.

Usage with Ice Spear ? In theory, it should double the damage because they are fired sequentially. In practice, ensuring they all land on the boss on the way back is unrealistic but I am not familiar with the width and precision of projectiles. I imagine if there is ever a support gem that give AoE to projectiles then yes it will be practical.

For now, I don't see how to use the Ring without reducing damage output on single target. Fury valve is one way to ensure every CP fired absolutely do land on the boss, but we're already doing that without the ring by simply staying near the boss.

And of course, I tried the ring on Simulacrum. At our loop speed, a barely understandable screen isn't something rare, but with that ring, it's something else, even with Frosbolt and Ice Spear projectiles coming back several meters above the character.

Perhaps I should just give up looking for fun but efficient way to looping with projectile and loop with Discharge or smt.


"
Terceprime wrote:
How do you resolve the "Half Loop, Half DPS" problem shown in the Loop Speed section? I'm currently stuck with this and trying to find a way around it

It can be because your mana recoup can't follow your casting, so your spells are used only when you have enough mana.
Alternatively, you are not taking enough damage, so it takes more than one loop of low level CWDT before your high level CWDT trigger.
I find your Chaos resistance way too high, could be that. Try using 2 Ring if not already, remove Support Gem and only leave one spell in the loop you're trying to fix, use lower level CWDT...
"
Terceprime wrote:
How do you resolve the "Half Loop, Half DPS" problem shown in the Loop Speed section? I'm currently stuck with this and trying to find a way around it

Stats:
Ward with flask - 1204
ES - 132
Life - 3110
Chaos Res - -22%

Flask charges gained - 85%
Flask charges used - -10% (10% fewer used)
Flask duration mod - 86%

Olroths - 43% charges used - 20% qual

Loop functions properly, just running into the exact scenario shown in the GIF in the Loop Speed section


What did you do to your poor skeleton duration setup?:)
replace less duration with FR, replace 14% to dust with 17% one, loop will be running full speed.

Now that I looked at it more, you will get another issue - FR damage higher than ward. So, get more chaos res (6% and above), and reduce cwdt in chest to lvl 18, that will fix the self damage while loop will still work.
Last edited by Cahir_aep_Ceallach#1713 on Dec 28, 2022, 10:01:03 AM
"
What did you do to your poor skeleton duration setup?:)
replace less duration with FR, replace 14% to dust with 17% one, loop will be running full speed.

Now that I looked at it more, you will get another issue - FR damage higher than ward. So, get more chaos res (6% and above), and reduce cwdt in chest to lvl 18, that will fix the self damage while loop will still work.


That fixed it, thank you so much. I'll try to follow what you said about the chaos res as I work my way forward.

I guess lowering CWDT will also require lowering level of skill gems which I don't have the money for atm, might be easier to just save up for a divergent right?
Last edited by Terceprime#1352 on Dec 28, 2022, 10:20:14 AM
pls help
tell me why my trigger only starts when I change weapons twice? Not the first time.

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